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	<title>Comments on: Language matters.  Borders matter.</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Alexander Crawford</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1185</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1185</guid>
		<description>&quot;...but Esperanto would be a better and more efficient choice if it were possible for it to gain a significantly large number of speakers. Sorry for my starry-eyed idealism. :-)&quot;

Adam,

Why?  (I was making fun of Chomsky&#039;s politics with the &quot;Soviet&quot; crack).  Why would Esperanto be a better and more effecient choice?  This is a well hashed subject in liguistic circles that&#039;s worth revisiting.

There&#039;s no single institution or body that defines &quot;English&quot; as a written language in an &#039;international&#039; sense.  Typically we accept a couple of &quot;authorities&quot; like Websters or the OED, but even those are perpetually a decade behind the loop in codifying the practical &quot;use&quot; in spoken English.  I&#039;d argue that it is the ability of writers in English to defy institutional definitions of terms and &quot;rules&quot; with the expectation that popular &quot;use&quot; is more powerful a linguistic argument than dictate from above.  

As either Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum (I get them mixed up) said to Alice:  &quot;He who defines, Rules&quot;.  If Esperanto ISN&#039;T an argument in favor of centralized and controlled &quot;definition&quot;, what is it?  Eh, Comrade?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;but Esperanto would be a better and more efficient choice if it were possible for it to gain a significantly large number of speakers. Sorry for my starry-eyed idealism. :-)&#8221;</p>
<p>Adam,</p>
<p>Why?  (I was making fun of Chomsky&#8217;s politics with the &#8220;Soviet&#8221; crack).  Why would Esperanto be a better and more effecient choice?  This is a well hashed subject in liguistic circles that&#8217;s worth revisiting.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no single institution or body that defines &#8220;English&#8221; as a written language in an &#8216;international&#8217; sense.  Typically we accept a couple of &#8220;authorities&#8221; like Websters or the OED, but even those are perpetually a decade behind the loop in codifying the practical &#8220;use&#8221; in spoken English.  I&#8217;d argue that it is the ability of writers in English to defy institutional definitions of terms and &#8220;rules&#8221; with the expectation that popular &#8220;use&#8221; is more powerful a linguistic argument than dictate from above.  </p>
<p>As either Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum (I get them mixed up) said to Alice:  &#8220;He who defines, Rules&#8221;.  If Esperanto ISN&#8217;T an argument in favor of centralized and controlled &#8220;definition&#8221;, what is it?  Eh, Comrade?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1184</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1184</guid>
		<description>Lex, you&#039;re right, Esperanto is probably not going to achieve significant widespread use anytime soon, and English is almost certainly a better choice for a mostly international language in the short to medium term at least, but Esperanto would be a better and more efficient choice if it were possible for it to gain a significantly large number of speakers. Sorry for my starry-eyed idealism. :-)

People are unlikely to adopt Esperanto because of the problem of bootstrapping a large number of speakers, not because it&#039;s &quot;artificial&quot; or &quot;fabricated&quot;. Because it&#039;s planned, it is easier to learn for non-native speakers, and non-native speakers don&#039;t have to study it for years just to speak it at a level inferior to native speakers.

BTW, my guess is that around 1921 someone or other predicted the global dominance of each of the top five or more languages, so it&#039;s not too surprising that someone also predicted the dominance of English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lex, you&#8217;re right, Esperanto is probably not going to achieve significant widespread use anytime soon, and English is almost certainly a better choice for a mostly international language in the short to medium term at least, but Esperanto would be a better and more efficient choice if it were possible for it to gain a significantly large number of speakers. Sorry for my starry-eyed idealism. :-)</p>
<p>People are unlikely to adopt Esperanto because of the problem of bootstrapping a large number of speakers, not because it&#8217;s &#8220;artificial&#8221; or &#8220;fabricated&#8221;. Because it&#8217;s planned, it is easier to learn for non-native speakers, and non-native speakers don&#8217;t have to study it for years just to speak it at a level inferior to native speakers.</p>
<p>BTW, my guess is that around 1921 someone or other predicted the global dominance of each of the top five or more languages, so it&#8217;s not too surprising that someone also predicted the dominance of English.</p>
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		<title>By: Lex</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1183</link>
		<dc:creator>Lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1183</guid>
		<description>Adam, maybe you have some emotional investment in Esperanto.  But, realistically, it is not going to happen.  Historically, languages become widely used for reasons related to trade, political and military power, cultural prestige, etc.  This process is spontaneous, unplanned, unorganized and bottom-up.  It happened with Greek, Latin, French and now English.  There is no reason to think English cannot effectively serve as a &quot;universal language&quot; of trade, science, business, etc. It largely does so now, and the process has been ongoing for many, many years.   As far back as 1921 the global dominance of English&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bartleby.com/185/54.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; was being predicted&lt;/a&gt;.  

Nor is there any reason to think that people would adopt Esperanto, a fabricated language, in its stead.  So, the common language you propose for the whole world, if we ever have one, is pretty likely to be English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, maybe you have some emotional investment in Esperanto.  But, realistically, it is not going to happen.  Historically, languages become widely used for reasons related to trade, political and military power, cultural prestige, etc.  This process is spontaneous, unplanned, unorganized and bottom-up.  It happened with Greek, Latin, French and now English.  There is no reason to think English cannot effectively serve as a &#8220;universal language&#8221; of trade, science, business, etc. It largely does so now, and the process has been ongoing for many, many years.   As far back as 1921 the global dominance of English<a href="http://www.bartleby.com/185/54.html" rel="nofollow"> was being predicted</a>.  </p>
<p>Nor is there any reason to think that people would adopt Esperanto, a fabricated language, in its stead.  So, the common language you propose for the whole world, if we ever have one, is pretty likely to be English.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1182</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1182</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I don&#039;t see what a World Soviet has anything to do with anything. Are people who share a common language necessarily under a single dictatorial government? Obviously not, as that&#039;s not true of the English-speaking world, and it&#039;s obvious that the English-speaking world is freer for sharing a common language. Just as sharing a common language makes borders much less relevant for English speakers, it would do the same for the entire world, and that&#039;s a worthwhile goal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I don&#8217;t see what a World Soviet has anything to do with anything. Are people who share a common language necessarily under a single dictatorial government? Obviously not, as that&#8217;s not true of the English-speaking world, and it&#8217;s obvious that the English-speaking world is freer for sharing a common language. Just as sharing a common language makes borders much less relevant for English speakers, it would do the same for the entire world, and that&#8217;s a worthwhile goal.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Crawford</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1181</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1181</guid>
		<description>Adam,

A World Soviet at last...  I was just reading Spensor on the right of the individual to ignore the state.  It struck me, does this

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02summer/liotta.htm

lRead like it&#039;s familiar to any of you guys?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam,</p>
<p>A World Soviet at last&#8230;  I was just reading Spensor on the right of the individual to ignore the state.  It struck me, does this</p>
<p><a href="http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02summer/liotta.htm" rel="nofollow">http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/02summer/liotta.htm</a></p>
<p>lRead like it&#8217;s familiar to any of you guys?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1180</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1180</guid>
		<description>This is why the entire world should learn &lt;a href=&quot;http://esperanto.net&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Esperanto&lt;/a&gt;, so that the world could truly be border-free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why the entire world should learn <a href="http://esperanto.net" rel="nofollow">Esperanto</a>, so that the world could truly be border-free.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1179</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1179</guid>
		<description>Lex is correct, though it breaks my libertarian techno-optimist&#039;s heart to admit it. It is easier for anglophones to do business in the developed world, and particularly in the Anglosphere, and most particularly in the U.S. and UK, than it is elsewhere. 

One thing that stands out about the U.S. is that it&#039;s possible to be wealthy, and even socially or politically prominent, and still to move around in freedom with little concern for personal safety. There are so many successful people in our society that it&#039;s difficult to stand out as the big fish in the small pond. And the rule of law is established to the point that one doesn&#039;t worry about being shaken down by petty officials. There are numerous countries where the business and social environments are routinely more hostile than they are in the worst parts of the most badly managed U.S. cities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lex is correct, though it breaks my libertarian techno-optimist&#8217;s heart to admit it. It is easier for anglophones to do business in the developed world, and particularly in the Anglosphere, and most particularly in the U.S. and UK, than it is elsewhere. </p>
<p>One thing that stands out about the U.S. is that it&#8217;s possible to be wealthy, and even socially or politically prominent, and still to move around in freedom with little concern for personal safety. There are so many successful people in our society that it&#8217;s difficult to stand out as the big fish in the small pond. And the rule of law is established to the point that one doesn&#8217;t worry about being shaken down by petty officials. There are numerous countries where the business and social environments are routinely more hostile than they are in the worst parts of the most badly managed U.S. cities.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Crawford</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1178</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1178</guid>
		<description>Cell phones and internet access do not occur in a vacuum, and in the third world there&#039;s little or no dependable infrastructure outside capitals.  Then there&#039;s the fact that there&#039;s not much law, and an endless supply of people who make a buck a day and would cut off a hand to migrate somewhere that their kids could get out of the slums.

Amon is making a fairly common mistake in his assumption that &quot;physical location has little meaning when one works via the net&quot;.  I have an office in Dhaka, Bangladesh, and although we exchange files via the net, we couldn&#039;t do more (baud rate of maybe 24k) easily.  The bottom line is that Bangladesh is the most corrupt country on the planet, and service in almost everything depends on either theft or bribes.   So there&#039;s a lack of places, even within India, one can find consistent ISP service.  Then there&#039;s the town or city in which one actually lives.  Does it have typhoid outbreaks? Dengue?  Crime?  Physical location affects all of those things.

Then there&#039;s the tax question.  Brussels and many US States want to levy their own taxes on internet exchange and traffic and trade.  So if the EU decides it&#039;s got to control the internet pipeline between Ireland and the US, then the US companies will go elsewhere to avoid the theivin EUrocrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cell phones and internet access do not occur in a vacuum, and in the third world there&#8217;s little or no dependable infrastructure outside capitals.  Then there&#8217;s the fact that there&#8217;s not much law, and an endless supply of people who make a buck a day and would cut off a hand to migrate somewhere that their kids could get out of the slums.</p>
<p>Amon is making a fairly common mistake in his assumption that &#8220;physical location has little meaning when one works via the net&#8221;.  I have an office in Dhaka, Bangladesh, and although we exchange files via the net, we couldn&#8217;t do more (baud rate of maybe 24k) easily.  The bottom line is that Bangladesh is the most corrupt country on the planet, and service in almost everything depends on either theft or bribes.   So there&#8217;s a lack of places, even within India, one can find consistent ISP service.  Then there&#8217;s the town or city in which one actually lives.  Does it have typhoid outbreaks? Dengue?  Crime?  Physical location affects all of those things.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the tax question.  Brussels and many US States want to levy their own taxes on internet exchange and traffic and trade.  So if the EU decides it&#8217;s got to control the internet pipeline between Ireland and the US, then the US companies will go elsewhere to avoid the theivin EUrocrats.</p>
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		<title>By: freddie</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1177</link>
		<dc:creator>freddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:54:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1177</guid>
		<description>Is it me or do others find that speakfing to an English speaking tech helper is a job worse than self-fixing the computerproblem. I note that in countries where English barely spoken I can better understand many people than when speaking to folks in India, where English is learned at an early age...that said: what is left out is that tech help comes from places that not only have lots of English speakers but also have many who are trained in technology.  What good is it if you can tlak to someone who speaks English if they have not the background you need for your help?  Thus certain countries are most used for tech support because they have many people speaking English and schools pumping out tech =knowing lads and lassies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it me or do others find that speakfing to an English speaking tech helper is a job worse than self-fixing the computerproblem. I note that in countries where English barely spoken I can better understand many people than when speaking to folks in India, where English is learned at an early age&#8230;that said: what is left out is that tech help comes from places that not only have lots of English speakers but also have many who are trained in technology.  What good is it if you can tlak to someone who speaks English if they have not the background you need for your help?  Thus certain countries are most used for tech support because they have many people speaking English and schools pumping out tech =knowing lads and lassies.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1176</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1176</guid>
		<description>When ever I suspect that the call center is overseas, I ask the support guy how the weather is, where he is, etc.  I talked to one guy who described how he was taught a flat Texas accent (as opposed to a sharp, twangy one).  He then gave me examples of his regular accent for comparison.  
And the help he provided was good, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When ever I suspect that the call center is overseas, I ask the support guy how the weather is, where he is, etc.  I talked to one guy who described how he was taught a flat Texas accent (as opposed to a sharp, twangy one).  He then gave me examples of his regular accent for comparison.<br />
And the help he provided was good, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Sylvain Galineau</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1175</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvain Galineau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1175</guid>
		<description>Language and tax incentives are behind Ireland&#039;s revival and the number of European high-tech call centers there. Educated, affordable English-speaking workforce, low taxes...

A double-edged sword though. As the US slowed down, so did Ireland, virtually overnight. You need to walk before you run, of course and Ireland has been walking faster than many lately. One can only hope bone-headed EU tax harmonization does not push it back down the slope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Language and tax incentives are behind Ireland&#8217;s revival and the number of European high-tech call centers there. Educated, affordable English-speaking workforce, low taxes&#8230;</p>
<p>A double-edged sword though. As the US slowed down, so did Ireland, virtually overnight. You need to walk before you run, of course and Ireland has been walking faster than many lately. One can only hope bone-headed EU tax harmonization does not push it back down the slope.</p>
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		<title>By: Val</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/1621.html/comment-page-1#comment-1174</link>
		<dc:creator>Val</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/001621.php#comment-1174</guid>
		<description>Thanks for two great posts, Lex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for two great posts, Lex.</p>
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