Comments on: Hearts and Minds Accidentally

By: MatyaNoBaka

MatyaNoBaka — Sun, 17 Oct 2004 15:47:41 +0000

“Turning against foreign jihadis does not imply support for us.”

Sylvain, do we need Iraqi support for us? Maybe enough strength to hold together, enough interest in democracy to not go totalitarian and not try to re-take Kuwait, and enough pride to hold what is theirs and not let it get used to violently support other peoples’ goals would be enough.

If we have to make Iraq love the US, i think we have a hard problem indeed.

But the objective in draining the swamp was to get rid of a particularly nasty breed of alligators. If Al Quaeda and Hammas lose their support in Iraq (even just the official support) and Iraq hangs together, maybe we’ve come pretty close to the real goal.

Matya no baka

By: Sylvain Galineau

Sylvain Galineau — Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:19:22 +0000

Fritz, whatever…maybe you can explain how this pithy comment has any connection with the points being made ? Extrapolating from “they want to get rid of foreign elements and are willing to use our help to do so” to “we are winning hearts and minds” is weak. If only because I have heard this tale every month in the past year and a half. So I need a wee more than that. Sorry.

By: Thomas Hazlewood

Thomas Hazlewood — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:12:42 +0000

Sounds like a variation on the ‘Tough Love’ programs.

By: Milblog

Milblog — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:09:10 +0000

Be careful what you wish for…

Because you just might get it. I’m wondering if the folks planning things in Iraq were remembering that saying – especially considering the reports that the insurgents and foreign fighters are really wearing out their welcome.Chicago Boyz Via Instapund…

By: j.scott barnard

j.scott barnard — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:33:55 +0000

You’ll be getting alot of Instapundit readers through here this morning, Shannon. Good job.

–scott

By: Fritz Meyer

Fritz Meyer — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:24:06 +0000

Sylvain, so am I now to believe that poverty causes crime?

By: Sylvain Galineau

Sylvain Galineau — Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:01:02 +0000

Turning against foreign jihadis does not imply support for us. That Iraqi insurgents and some civilians use us to settle scores and turf battles with foreigners does not prove anything about winning hearts and minds of the general population.

By: OldManRick

OldManRick — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:16:19 +0000

It actually seems more intentional than you would think. There have been several options for Fallujah. The Kurds offered to clean it out for us but we deferred. The Marines seemed to be able to provide a military victory at any time. In fact, several times the Marines have had Falluja in their sights but have stopped short of taking it over totally. The first time they tried to turn it over to the Iraqi brigade. This turned out to be a total failure as the “brigade” didn’t live up to it’s promise.

It seems that the problem is not taking Fallujah but holding it. Remember Patton, “I don’t like to pay for the same ground twice.”

Now, it seems we have a well trained Iraqi contingent. The Iraqis have proved themselves with the Samarra operation. Now they are ready to take on a bigger problem. Ref: HERE and HERE

All the talk about the problems in Iraq overlooks the basic choice we had to make. We could:
1. Overwhelm the country with troops and occupy it. This would just build up long-term resentments similar to those in Saudi Arabia. We would be seen as occupiers.
2. Install a dictator of our choice, cut and run. Same resentment problems as the first. More stability problems.
3. Develop a stable government capable of taking care of its self. Most short term pain as we have neither the force of the first or the low profile of the second. But this can provide the most long term leverage in the area.

Bush has chosen the third option. It requires patience, it includes false steps (like the Iraqi brigade in Fallujah), and in the short term it is painful. But the Samarra operation, the minimization of the Sadr militia, and now the results in Fallujah would seem to be paying off.

By: Fritz Meyer

Fritz Meyer — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:58:25 +0000

The goal of 4th Generation Warfare.
“As important as finding and destroying the actual combatants, for example,�is drying up the bases of popular support that allow them to recruit for, plan, and execute their attacks.� Perhaps most odd of all, being seen as too successful militarily may create a backlash, making the opponent’s other elements of 4GW more effective.”

By: aaron

aaron — Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:55:18 +0000

I don’t think it’s a complete accident, it think it’s a gamble. There are likely long-term benefits, but short-term cost, to not solving Iraq’s problems for them. Doing things for them will curb the violence, but it works against Iraq being independent.