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	<title>Comments on: Eroding Science&#8217;s Brand</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Altarion</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10360</link>
		<dc:creator>Altarion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10360</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it is corrupt. I have read the survey and I think it&#039;s quite grounded.
You have the right to your own opinion but I would ask you to be more flexible and not to use strong language. It&#039;s not the strong language that may convince people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it is corrupt. I have read the survey and I think it&#8217;s quite grounded.<br />
You have the right to your own opinion but I would ask you to be more flexible and not to use strong language. It&#8217;s not the strong language that may convince people.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Lea</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10359</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Lea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10359</guid>
		<description>Though it&#039;s old hat by now, a similar politically motivated travesty was the reception given to Lumborg&#039;s (sp?) book The Skeptical Environmentalist a couple of years back.  The author was pilloried and panned by Nature, Science, and Scientific American, and for what?  Basically, for suggesting that a cost/benefit analysis ought to be done before we spend too much money trying to mitigate global warming, based on current evidence (which they did not dispute) that we can do little.   A Cost/Benefit analysis?  Can you believe it?  Heresy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though it&#8217;s old hat by now, a similar politically motivated travesty was the reception given to Lumborg&#8217;s (sp?) book The Skeptical Environmentalist a couple of years back.  The author was pilloried and panned by Nature, Science, and Scientific American, and for what?  Basically, for suggesting that a cost/benefit analysis ought to be done before we spend too much money trying to mitigate global warming, based on current evidence (which they did not dispute) that we can do little.   A Cost/Benefit analysis?  Can you believe it?  Heresy!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anondson</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10358</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anondson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10358</guid>
		<description>Shannon,

I applaud your gusto in dogging this issue.

I would recommend a short book I just finished. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231134282/qid=1112080635/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-8568091-5249724?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kuhn vs. Popper : The Struggle for the Soul of Science&lt;/a&gt; by Steve Fuller. It&#039;s only 132 pages in length, and a quick read.

I&#039;d been reading more of Karl Popper lately and stumbled upon this book in a Barnes and Noble. It highlights much of the issues with scientific discovery that got Karl Popper animated and in my opinion they apply in the case of the Lancet study you are picking apart. I believe that if you read it you will find much to back up your righteous anger over the perversion of science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shannon,</p>
<p>I applaud your gusto in dogging this issue.</p>
<p>I would recommend a short book I just finished. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231134282/qid=1112080635/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-8568091-5249724?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846" rel="nofollow">Kuhn vs. Popper : The Struggle for the Soul of Science</a> by Steve Fuller. It&#8217;s only 132 pages in length, and a quick read.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d been reading more of Karl Popper lately and stumbled upon this book in a Barnes and Noble. It highlights much of the issues with scientific discovery that got Karl Popper animated and in my opinion they apply in the case of the Lancet study you are picking apart. I believe that if you read it you will find much to back up your righteous anger over the perversion of science.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10357</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10357</guid>
		<description>Bad science is politics&#039; handmaiden.  The question might be how many orders of magnitude the study is off.  I don&#039;t think anyone is contending that this hasn&#039;t been a bloody sloppy time with lots of life damage in Iraq, and that&#039;s the theme of the study-no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bad science is politics&#8217; handmaiden.  The question might be how many orders of magnitude the study is off.  I don&#8217;t think anyone is contending that this hasn&#8217;t been a bloody sloppy time with lots of life damage in Iraq, and that&#8217;s the theme of the study-no?</p>
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		<title>By: Deltoid</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10361</link>
		<dc:creator>Deltoid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10361</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;ChicagoBoyz on Lancet Study&lt;/strong&gt;


After accusing the researchers and the Lancet of &lt;a href=&quot;http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/2005/03#lancet25&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fraud
and treason&lt;/a&gt;, Shannon Love is back with another accusation.  The latest crime he accuses them of is...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>ChicagoBoyz on Lancet Study</strong></p>
<p>After accusing the researchers and the Lancet of <a href="http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/2005/03#lancet25" rel="nofollow">fraud<br />
and treason</a>, Shannon Love is back with another accusation.  The latest crime he accuses them of is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Noel</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10356</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10356</guid>
		<description>Or using it to make policy.

The things I do for science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or using it to make policy.</p>
<p>The things I do for science.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10355</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10355</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Stick to your guns, Shannon; if it looks like crap, smells like crap, tastes like crap and doesn&#039;t get your hair clean when you shampoo with it, odds are, it&#039;s crap.&lt;/i&gt;

If it looks and smells like crap you probably shouldn&#039;t be tasting it or putting it on your hair.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Stick to your guns, Shannon; if it looks like crap, smells like crap, tastes like crap and doesn&#8217;t get your hair clean when you shampoo with it, odds are, it&#8217;s crap.</i></p>
<p>If it looks and smells like crap you probably shouldn&#8217;t be tasting it or putting it on your hair.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Herman</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10354</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Herman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10354</guid>
		<description>Okay.  I&#039;m not scared.  The Lancet employed bogus statistical rules.  And, this is not uncommon.  It happens lots of times in science.  More than you know.

Here&#039;s how it works.  You want a circtain conclusion; and you do your &quot;feasibles&quot; in order to reach your conclusion.

It&#039;s not quite Kosher.  

The Lancet, as a general rule, doesn&#039;t screw up like this.  And, most screw ups don&#039;t get caught LIKE THIS.

Ah, &quot;that&#039;s the rub.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay.  I&#8217;m not scared.  The Lancet employed bogus statistical rules.  And, this is not uncommon.  It happens lots of times in science.  More than you know.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s how it works.  You want a circtain conclusion; and you do your &#8220;feasibles&#8221; in order to reach your conclusion.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not quite Kosher.  </p>
<p>The Lancet, as a general rule, doesn&#8217;t screw up like this.  And, most screw ups don&#8217;t get caught LIKE THIS.</p>
<p>Ah, &#8220;that&#8217;s the rub.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Noel</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10353</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10353</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ll not be crawling anywhere to apologize; it was a hack job from finish to start--they started at the desired conclusion and worked backwards.

In the real world, we ask &quot;compared to what?&quot; The @ 2 million people Saddam killed? Or is it 2 million plus 2,985? Or compared to every other war ever fought, all of which evidently went perfectly from start to finish?

The Pentagon calculates the number of innocent casualties it thinks will result from an action. One can say &quot;They do it to minimize the loss of life as much as humanly possible.&quot; Or you could say &quot;They dryly calulated the &#039;acceptable&#039; number of innocent deaths.&quot; Or you could even say &#039;The Pentagon plans to murder x number of innocent civilians in cold blood.&#039;

Let&#039;s say you have a loan program. 99% of white applicants get a loan. 98% of black applicants get a loan. You can say &quot;What a great program; almost no one is turned down, regardless of race.&quot;
Or you can say &quot;What an outrage; blacks were turned down at twice the rate of whites--call Jesse Jackson!&quot;

Agenda-driven science gets people killed. Think of Kinsey, who portrayed himself as a disinterested observer of the mating habits of Amazonian wasps. 

Turns out he was a radical pervert who 
a. based his stats on prison inmates, not the general public, 
b. whose favorite source was a literal serial baby-raper, 
c.who slept with his wife, his employees, their wives, their hairdressers, the hairdresser&#039;s cousin the organ-grinder, the organ-grinder&#039;s monkey, the monkey&#039;s uncle, etc., etc.
and who d.) enjoyed inserting coat-hangers into his organ until it turned black an fell off.

Other than that, he was dedicated scientist and a close personal friend. Meanwhile, 50 years later, there&#039;s a world-wide AIDS epidemic, Hugh Hefner can&#039;t or won&#039;t get out of his bathrobe, and we get to watch genital herpes commercials with our TV dinners. I&#039;m thinkin&#039; &#039;Dude, I&#039;m all broke up about your herpes and all, but I&#039;m trying to eat dinner here. You mind?&#039; 

Lately though, I&#039;ve been thinking about contracting it, because, according to the commercials, you get to have an attractive partner and spend your days bicycling and picnicking.

Stick to your guns, Shannon; if it looks like crap, smells like crap, tastes like crap and doesn&#039;t get your hair clean when you shampoo with it, odds are, it&#039;s crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ll not be crawling anywhere to apologize; it was a hack job from finish to start&#8211;they started at the desired conclusion and worked backwards.</p>
<p>In the real world, we ask &#8220;compared to what?&#8221; The @ 2 million people Saddam killed? Or is it 2 million plus 2,985? Or compared to every other war ever fought, all of which evidently went perfectly from start to finish?</p>
<p>The Pentagon calculates the number of innocent casualties it thinks will result from an action. One can say &#8220;They do it to minimize the loss of life as much as humanly possible.&#8221; Or you could say &#8220;They dryly calulated the &#8216;acceptable&#8217; number of innocent deaths.&#8221; Or you could even say &#8216;The Pentagon plans to murder x number of innocent civilians in cold blood.&#8217;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say you have a loan program. 99% of white applicants get a loan. 98% of black applicants get a loan. You can say &#8220;What a great program; almost no one is turned down, regardless of race.&#8221;<br />
Or you can say &#8220;What an outrage; blacks were turned down at twice the rate of whites&#8211;call Jesse Jackson!&#8221;</p>
<p>Agenda-driven science gets people killed. Think of Kinsey, who portrayed himself as a disinterested observer of the mating habits of Amazonian wasps. </p>
<p>Turns out he was a radical pervert who<br />
a. based his stats on prison inmates, not the general public,<br />
b. whose favorite source was a literal serial baby-raper,<br />
c.who slept with his wife, his employees, their wives, their hairdressers, the hairdresser&#8217;s cousin the organ-grinder, the organ-grinder&#8217;s monkey, the monkey&#8217;s uncle, etc., etc.<br />
and who d.) enjoyed inserting coat-hangers into his organ until it turned black an fell off.</p>
<p>Other than that, he was dedicated scientist and a close personal friend. Meanwhile, 50 years later, there&#8217;s a world-wide AIDS epidemic, Hugh Hefner can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t get out of his bathrobe, and we get to watch genital herpes commercials with our TV dinners. I&#8217;m thinkin&#8217; &#8216;Dude, I&#8217;m all broke up about your herpes and all, but I&#8217;m trying to eat dinner here. You mind?&#8217; </p>
<p>Lately though, I&#8217;ve been thinking about contracting it, because, according to the commercials, you get to have an attractive partner and spend your days bicycling and picnicking.</p>
<p>Stick to your guns, Shannon; if it looks like crap, smells like crap, tastes like crap and doesn&#8217;t get your hair clean when you shampoo with it, odds are, it&#8217;s crap.</p>
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		<title>By: Heiko Gerhauser</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10352</link>
		<dc:creator>Heiko Gerhauser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10352</guid>
		<description>The model the Greek astronomers came up with worked. It may not reflect reality, but it doesn&#039;t have to, if the calculations give the right results for what they are trying to predict, and the alternative model has no immediately obvious benefit. Gosh, even what they were trying to predict was of pretty minor consequence to people&#039;s day to day concerns at the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The model the Greek astronomers came up with worked. It may not reflect reality, but it doesn&#8217;t have to, if the calculations give the right results for what they are trying to predict, and the alternative model has no immediately obvious benefit. Gosh, even what they were trying to predict was of pretty minor consequence to people&#8217;s day to day concerns at the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Andjam</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10351</link>
		<dc:creator>Andjam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10351</guid>
		<description>I guess one point to remember is that the &quot;good old days&quot; often aren&#039;t as good as you&#039;d like to think. For example, I think Wilhelm Weinberg, as in the Hardy-Weinberg principle, was a supporter of eugenics, and that the concept was somewhat mainstream back then.

I&#039;ve been reading &quot;Big Bang&quot; by Simon Singh, and read about the torturous route taken on the road to current theories. One thing that surprised me was that ancient Greek astronomers discussed the theory of the sun-centred solar system and rejected it - it wasn&#039;t that no-one thought of it or that the Catholic church was to blame, scientists managed to muck it up by themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess one point to remember is that the &#8220;good old days&#8221; often aren&#8217;t as good as you&#8217;d like to think. For example, I think Wilhelm Weinberg, as in the Hardy-Weinberg principle, was a supporter of eugenics, and that the concept was somewhat mainstream back then.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading &#8220;Big Bang&#8221; by Simon Singh, and read about the torturous route taken on the road to current theories. One thing that surprised me was that ancient Greek astronomers discussed the theory of the sun-centred solar system and rejected it &#8211; it wasn&#8217;t that no-one thought of it or that the Catholic church was to blame, scientists managed to muck it up by themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Heiko Gerhauser</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10350</link>
		<dc:creator>Heiko Gerhauser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10350</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have the kind of respect for peer review some people seem to hold. The whole business of science publishing deserves a thorough overhaul, and for a number of reasons.

http://www.infotoday.com/newsbreaks/nb040322-3.shtml

A small group of publishers hold a near monopoly and consequently have very high margins. Neither scientists who publish papers nor those who read them have an incentive to demand lower prices, as they don&#039;t pay. The government pays both for the science and for the published journal subscriptions.

With the internet, I believe it would now be possible to do an open peer review, with papers submitted for comment by anyone who wishes to comment (or if this is abused, anyone who has certain qualifications, and whose right to comment is withdrawn, when it is obviously abused), and only a subset getting a &quot;seal of approval&quot; by a committee of eminent scientists as being of particularly high standard.

The paper would then initially stand on the track record of the authors and of the institution they are employed by, and if particularly significant, would then also stand on the number of times it is quoted, and committee endorsements. Universities would have an incentive not to have rubbish published in their name, and would therefore likely have internal review procedures even before putting a paper out for open comments.

As to this particular paper and the Lancet, it hasn&#039;t helped the Lancet&#039;s reputation in my eyes, and it also has the MMR debacle as a black mark against it.

It is terrible for the Lancet to &quot;expedite&quot; peer review to meet an election deadline, because even if the peer review were still of a high standard, it gives an impression of impropriety and publishing science for its political impact value rather than its accuracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have the kind of respect for peer review some people seem to hold. The whole business of science publishing deserves a thorough overhaul, and for a number of reasons.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.infotoday.com/newsbreaks/nb040322-3.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.infotoday.com/newsbreaks/nb040322-3.shtml</a></p>
<p>A small group of publishers hold a near monopoly and consequently have very high margins. Neither scientists who publish papers nor those who read them have an incentive to demand lower prices, as they don&#8217;t pay. The government pays both for the science and for the published journal subscriptions.</p>
<p>With the internet, I believe it would now be possible to do an open peer review, with papers submitted for comment by anyone who wishes to comment (or if this is abused, anyone who has certain qualifications, and whose right to comment is withdrawn, when it is obviously abused), and only a subset getting a &#8220;seal of approval&#8221; by a committee of eminent scientists as being of particularly high standard.</p>
<p>The paper would then initially stand on the track record of the authors and of the institution they are employed by, and if particularly significant, would then also stand on the number of times it is quoted, and committee endorsements. Universities would have an incentive not to have rubbish published in their name, and would therefore likely have internal review procedures even before putting a paper out for open comments.</p>
<p>As to this particular paper and the Lancet, it hasn&#8217;t helped the Lancet&#8217;s reputation in my eyes, and it also has the MMR debacle as a black mark against it.</p>
<p>It is terrible for the Lancet to &#8220;expedite&#8221; peer review to meet an election deadline, because even if the peer review were still of a high standard, it gives an impression of impropriety and publishing science for its political impact value rather than its accuracy.</p>
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		<title>By: chel</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/2982.html/comment-page-1#comment-10349</link>
		<dc:creator>chel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/002982.php#comment-10349</guid>
		<description>The cosequences of either subverting science or ignoring science for polictical motive can be  severe.  And I see it happening more than ever. 

Here&#039;s recent examples of politics deciding trumping science in ways that can hurt people:

http://webexhibits.org/bush/7.html

http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1203/article11776.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cosequences of either subverting science or ignoring science for polictical motive can be  severe.  And I see it happening more than ever. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s recent examples of politics deciding trumping science in ways that can hurt people:</p>
<p><a href="http://webexhibits.org/bush/7.html" rel="nofollow">http://webexhibits.org/bush/7.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1203/article11776.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1203/article11776.asp</a></p>
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