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	<title>Comments on: The Bombing of Japanese Cities as Omen</title>
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	<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html</link>
	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21883</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21883</guid>
		<description>One consequence of the fire-bombing raids was the destruction of one of the Japanese atom-bomb projects.  (They had two.)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One consequence of the fire-bombing raids was the destruction of one of the Japanese atom-bomb projects.  (They had two.)</p>
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		<title>By: Dan from Madison</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21882</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan from Madison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21882</guid>
		<description>Victor Davis Hanson covers this topic with his typical brillince in the first section of &quot;Ripples of Battle&quot;.  As you stated the Kamikaze attacks did nothing but infuriate the US soldiers over there, and Hanson specifically analyzed the Battle of Okinawa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Victor Davis Hanson covers this topic with his typical brillince in the first section of &#8220;Ripples of Battle&#8221;.  As you stated the Kamikaze attacks did nothing but infuriate the US soldiers over there, and Hanson specifically analyzed the Battle of Okinawa.</p>
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		<title>By: GFK</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21881</link>
		<dc:creator>GFK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21881</guid>
		<description>thx for the comments and the book recommendation.  I&#039;ll check it out on amzn - gabriel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thx for the comments and the book recommendation.  I&#8217;ll check it out on amzn &#8211; gabriel</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21880</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21880</guid>
		<description>John,

The documentary went into quite a bit of detail on the issues you raised. I don&#039;t fault it at all in that regard. My objection is based on its framing of our late-war bombing decisions as resulting entirely from tactical considerations. Would we have used incendiaries on cities in 1942 if we could have? I doubt it; certainly it would have been less likely. So the question is, what happened during the course of the war that loosened our inhibitions on the use of such brutal tactics? The documentary&#039;s weakness was in not addressing that question. 

In this regard the documentary wasn&#039;t unusual, and I probably shouldn&#039;t single it out. Revisionism about the atomic bombings has been common for decades, as have doubts about the morality of bombing cities. But now such revisionism has become almost the standard position, at least in popular media. That&#039;s partly because many people are too ignorant about the war to understand the context in which democratic nations, after several years of brutal war, could decide that killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was the lesser of evils. Those who forget the past. . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>The documentary went into quite a bit of detail on the issues you raised. I don&#8217;t fault it at all in that regard. My objection is based on its framing of our late-war bombing decisions as resulting entirely from tactical considerations. Would we have used incendiaries on cities in 1942 if we could have? I doubt it; certainly it would have been less likely. So the question is, what happened during the course of the war that loosened our inhibitions on the use of such brutal tactics? The documentary&#8217;s weakness was in not addressing that question. </p>
<p>In this regard the documentary wasn&#8217;t unusual, and I probably shouldn&#8217;t single it out. Revisionism about the atomic bombings has been common for decades, as have doubts about the morality of bombing cities. But now such revisionism has become almost the standard position, at least in popular media. That&#8217;s partly because many people are too ignorant about the war to understand the context in which democratic nations, after several years of brutal war, could decide that killing hundreds of thousands of civilians was the lesser of evils. Those who forget the past. . .</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21879</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21879</guid>
		<description>Don - the most reliable figure I&#039;ve seen is 75 - 80K in both cities. I&#039;ve been to both sites, and looking at the radius of destruction, that seems about right for 1945 poulation levels. 

Coox is an awesome historian, isn&#039;t he? Have you read Nomonhan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don &#8211; the most reliable figure I&#8217;ve seen is 75 &#8211; 80K in both cities. I&#8217;ve been to both sites, and looking at the radius of destruction, that seems about right for 1945 poulation levels. </p>
<p>Coox is an awesome historian, isn&#8217;t he? Have you read Nomonhan?</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21878</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21878</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1 &#8211; Unlike the bombing in Europe, the bombing in Japan did reduce the military industrial output &#8211; Coxx, Alvin D.; Japan at the End of Her Tether, History of the Second World War [Part 91], BPC Publishing Ltd, 1966, London. Pg 2537.</p>
<p>In Kobe city, for example, workers dropped their tools as soon as an air raid alert sounded, so they would have enough time to flee to the hillsides immediately behind the metropolis before the bombers could arrive.  Consequently the mere sounding of the alert signal in the Kobe region caused an immediate drop in industrial production.  According to information reaching the War Ministry about May 1945, the attendance rate at munitions factories, throughout the country immediately after an air raid dwindled to 20-30%.  The average rate of absenteeism at factories in devastated areas approximated 40%.  In unraided zones the absentee rate averaged 15%, but even in unbombed Kyoto lost man hours totaled 40% by July 1945.</p>
<p>An indirect result of the raids was the dispersal of the labour force because of housing problems, thereby affecting both control and efficiency.</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>According to Home Ministry data, the following Japanese civilian losses were the minimum incurred as the result of all air raids on the Homeland:  241,309 killed, 313,041 injured, 8,045,094 homeless, 2,333,388 buildings destroyed, 110,928 partial destroyed.  The number of houses razed represented at least 30% of the national total.  It should also be noted that the Japanese themselves demolished 615,000 buildings as firebreaks, 214,000 of which were located in Tokyo.  In all about 13,000,000 people were driven from their homes by the destruction of dwellings; a substantial additional number were rendered homeless by the bombing of factory dormitories.</p>
<p>Large-scale evacuation of Japanese civilians from urban areas began in 1944.  Between January and September of that year, 1,000,000 moved out of Tokyo.  The capital’s population fell from 5,000,000 in January of 1945 to 2,453,000 in June.  About 55% of the Nagoya area inhabitants were evacuated; 60% of the Osaka-Kobe complex.  Probably 8,295,000 persons of all categories were evacuated throughout Japan.  Dispersal of the urban school population, began slowly in mid-1944, was intensified after the raids of March 1945.  By April, over 87% of urban school children had been moved </p>
<p>2 &#8211; The figure for Hiroshima of 140K is fictitious. I’ve kept the newspaper reports on Hiroshima for a while and every year the number keeps increasing. Just because someone was in Hiroshima and dies in 1998 doesn’t mean there’s a causal relationship, but they is the game they’ve been playing.  The Bombing Survey wanted to know exactly the consequence of the new weapon. A census as conducted using as the baseline the rice ration allocations that the Japanese government had been using. Then a person to person interview process was conducted, not only to identify residents, but their neighbors, to get as good an idea of who was were on that day &#8211; a census, not a sampling. The final number arrived at was around 65K with another 5k or so tracked for radiation poisoning.   Since then the number somehow keeps increasing from the 60s to the 90s, then over a hundred, and in the most recent release around that 140K. It’s the victim game. It works. Go look at how many Philippinos were butchered by barbed wire, bullet, and bayonet of the Japanese Imperial forces in Manila in February of 1945.  Somehow that second ‘Nanking’ doesn’t get the press. Of course the Americans didn’t do it, maybe that has something to do with the lack of coverage.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21877</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21877</guid>
		<description>As an ironic aside, there is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumidagawa_Fireworks_Festival&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fireworks&lt;/a&gt; festival held in that area - the fireworks are fired off of barges, and the barges are located prety much in the center of where the napalm X was lit by the lead bombers as a target for the following waves.

The fireworks are spectacular, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an ironic aside, there is a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumidagawa_Fireworks_Festival" rel="nofollow">fireworks</a> festival held in that area &#8211; the fireworks are fired off of barges, and the barges are located prety much in the center of where the napalm X was lit by the lead bombers as a target for the following waves.</p>
<p>The fireworks are spectacular, though.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21876</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21876</guid>
		<description>Damn it, why do these revisionists always gloss over the decentralized nature of production in late-war Japan? After the big factories got bombed, they interspersed small machine shops and AA guns among the living quarters in the Shitamachi. Much like the Hezbollah tactics of this past year. This was not blind striking at civilians, this was striking at the production capacity of Japan, which had morphed into a decentralized collection of microfactories. Our stated objective for all the bombing campaigns was to eliminate their ability to produce war material, and this was the final phase. Schools were routinely used as military training facilities and the gymnasiums used sa factory floors. That area around Asakusa is still dotted will small machine shops, although there are some office buildings across the Sumidagawa river, now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn it, why do these revisionists always gloss over the decentralized nature of production in late-war Japan? After the big factories got bombed, they interspersed small machine shops and AA guns among the living quarters in the Shitamachi. Much like the Hezbollah tactics of this past year. This was not blind striking at civilians, this was striking at the production capacity of Japan, which had morphed into a decentralized collection of microfactories. Our stated objective for all the bombing campaigns was to eliminate their ability to produce war material, and this was the final phase. Schools were routinely used as military training facilities and the gymnasiums used sa factory floors. That area around Asakusa is still dotted will small machine shops, although there are some office buildings across the Sumidagawa river, now.</p>
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		<title>By: GFK</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21875</link>
		<dc:creator>GFK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21875</guid>
		<description>Probably because Germans are white and don&#039;t matter.  The only thing important is what evil white people do to minorities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably because Germans are white and don&#8217;t matter.  The only thing important is what evil white people do to minorities.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21874</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21874</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know, but since I didn&#039;t watch the whole thing it&#039;s possible that I missed something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know, but since I didn&#8217;t watch the whole thing it&#8217;s possible that I missed something.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21873</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21873</guid>
		<description>I wonder why the documentary focused only on the bombing of Japanese cities, while the US and British bombing of German cities was also very extensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why the documentary focused only on the bombing of Japanese cities, while the US and British bombing of German cities was also very extensive.</p>
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		<title>By: KiyariMG</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21872</link>
		<dc:creator>KiyariMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21872</guid>
		<description>War is supposed to be horrific, so horrific that the enemy is overwhelmed, defeated, and dare not repeat it.  The goal of war (from the US perspective) is to eliminate a threat against civilization.  Nukes, military occupation, martial law in a hostile territory is the answer.  May seem radical but this is precisely the remedy US imposed on Japan.  Since WW2, Japan has dare not repeated its facist history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>War is supposed to be horrific, so horrific that the enemy is overwhelmed, defeated, and dare not repeat it.  The goal of war (from the US perspective) is to eliminate a threat against civilization.  Nukes, military occupation, martial law in a hostile territory is the answer.  May seem radical but this is precisely the remedy US imposed on Japan.  Since WW2, Japan has dare not repeated its facist history.</p>
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		<title>By: GFK</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21871</link>
		<dc:creator>GFK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21871</guid>
		<description>The death-toll from Tokyo firebombing (~100K) was greater than from the Nagasaki bomb 75k, but not as great as Hiroshima was put at around 140K.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The death-toll from Tokyo firebombing (~100K) was greater than from the Nagasaki bomb 75k, but not as great as Hiroshima was put at around 140K.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Bennett</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4430.html/comment-page-1#comment-21870</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 04:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004430.php#comment-21870</guid>
		<description>Very specifically, the suicide tactics of the Japanese kamikaze corps reinforced the American resolve to use tactics like firebombing and atomic weapons to end the war.  The Japanese thought that suicide tactics would demoralize the Americans and serve as a demonstration of Japanese resolve.  They were right, in a way, but they failed to anticipate what the results of that effect would be.

There might be parallels with the present-day situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very specifically, the suicide tactics of the Japanese kamikaze corps reinforced the American resolve to use tactics like firebombing and atomic weapons to end the war.  The Japanese thought that suicide tactics would demoralize the Americans and serve as a demonstration of Japanese resolve.  They were right, in a way, but they failed to anticipate what the results of that effect would be.</p>
<p>There might be parallels with the present-day situation.</p>
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