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	<title>Comments on: Chua &#8211; World On Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Lex</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23106</link>
		<dc:creator>Lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 04:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23106</guid>
		<description>Mitch, the book is very good, with much good material.  It goes beyond a mere restatement of the idea of the tyranny of the majority.  
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch, the book is very good, with much good material.  It goes beyond a mere restatement of the idea of the tyranny of the majority.</p>
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		<title>By: veryretired</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23105</link>
		<dc:creator>veryretired</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 03:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23105</guid>
		<description>It is difficult for people in the West, in general, and the US in particular, to understand how threatening and destabilizing the various operational values of more open, democratic political systems are in the eyes of the rest of the world&#039;s cultures. This goes double for industrial capitalism and global free (or freer) trade.

Traditional cultures are exactly that---organized around very strong and well understood traditions that divvy up everything according to clan, tribe, social class, and birthplace, among other factors. 

Western societies were just like that, and some still are, a few centuries ago. All the misgivings and hostility now emerging in the developing nations is a recapitulation of the very same antagonisms towards these cultural styles that were often voiced in the development phase of Anglo societies---violation of class norms, racial or religious impropriety, disturbance of settled methods and markets, and, most importantly for many, the gradual fading out of much of the &quot;secure&quot; niches and status that families, clans, and other groupings had built up over the centuries.

It is not the case, after all, that there is some form of uncritical reverence for either democratic principles or free market economics in western societies. The last several centuries as these values have come to the fore have been times of immense turmoil, violence, and continual dislocations. Several of the most powerful political and economic ideologies in the west, esp. in Europe, have been specifically anti-democratic and anti-capitalist, and these theories are still influential around the world.

As a thumbnail sketch, most human cultures are combinations of fraternal and feudal associations. Various social, religious, economic, and class positions are parcelled out by the rules of the system, and people&#039;s positions within the closed universe are clear and well understood.

Capitalism and democratic processes SEEM to violate and overturn these revered processes. It is not until later in the process of a society operating under these new ideas that it becomes very clear that all that has happened is that one set of structured, feudalist arrangements have been replaced by another.

Granted, the strata are more fluid, and the hierarchies are determined by less hereditary and more meritocratic standards, but the inherent human tendency to construct understandable social structures always seems to mean that, eventually, form follows function.

If the function is the operation of a social mechanism, either political or economic, a form most comfortable and reasonably familiar will eventually emerge. The reason some minority social units thrive in the anglosphere&#039;s petri dish, and others do not, is that they are pre-adapted to the new medium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is difficult for people in the West, in general, and the US in particular, to understand how threatening and destabilizing the various operational values of more open, democratic political systems are in the eyes of the rest of the world&#8217;s cultures. This goes double for industrial capitalism and global free (or freer) trade.</p>
<p>Traditional cultures are exactly that&#8212;organized around very strong and well understood traditions that divvy up everything according to clan, tribe, social class, and birthplace, among other factors. </p>
<p>Western societies were just like that, and some still are, a few centuries ago. All the misgivings and hostility now emerging in the developing nations is a recapitulation of the very same antagonisms towards these cultural styles that were often voiced in the development phase of Anglo societies&#8212;violation of class norms, racial or religious impropriety, disturbance of settled methods and markets, and, most importantly for many, the gradual fading out of much of the &#8220;secure&#8221; niches and status that families, clans, and other groupings had built up over the centuries.</p>
<p>It is not the case, after all, that there is some form of uncritical reverence for either democratic principles or free market economics in western societies. The last several centuries as these values have come to the fore have been times of immense turmoil, violence, and continual dislocations. Several of the most powerful political and economic ideologies in the west, esp. in Europe, have been specifically anti-democratic and anti-capitalist, and these theories are still influential around the world.</p>
<p>As a thumbnail sketch, most human cultures are combinations of fraternal and feudal associations. Various social, religious, economic, and class positions are parcelled out by the rules of the system, and people&#8217;s positions within the closed universe are clear and well understood.</p>
<p>Capitalism and democratic processes SEEM to violate and overturn these revered processes. It is not until later in the process of a society operating under these new ideas that it becomes very clear that all that has happened is that one set of structured, feudalist arrangements have been replaced by another.</p>
<p>Granted, the strata are more fluid, and the hierarchies are determined by less hereditary and more meritocratic standards, but the inherent human tendency to construct understandable social structures always seems to mean that, eventually, form follows function.</p>
<p>If the function is the operation of a social mechanism, either political or economic, a form most comfortable and reasonably familiar will eventually emerge. The reason some minority social units thrive in the anglosphere&#8217;s petri dish, and others do not, is that they are pre-adapted to the new medium.</p>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23104</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23104</guid>
		<description>I have long suspected that the GDP gap between the US and the rest of the world is mostly due to the Dollar. 
The use of the dollar for international trade allows the US to print money like hell and never face any consequences so far.
Any country , without a dollar like currency, would have had to devalue its money or increase interest rates.
This Gap will disappear slowly either when global exchanges slow down or when 1 or more currencies take some market share.
As Chicago boys, I guess you already discussed this possibility long time ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have long suspected that the GDP gap between the US and the rest of the world is mostly due to the Dollar.<br />
The use of the dollar for international trade allows the US to print money like hell and never face any consequences so far.<br />
Any country , without a dollar like currency, would have had to devalue its money or increase interest rates.<br />
This Gap will disappear slowly either when global exchanges slow down or when 1 or more currencies take some market share.<br />
As Chicago boys, I guess you already discussed this possibility long time ago.</p>
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		<title>By: ghost</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23103</link>
		<dc:creator>ghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23103</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s more than tyranny of the majority.  The liberal vision (both libertarian and socialist-liberal) has been that ethnic and tribal interests would fade away in the face of economic development.

But in much of the world, identity/ethnic solidarity is so strong that the majority would accept worse outcomes just to spite a successful minority.  While Madison, et al. worried about majoritarian redistribution, they did not focus greatly on the sort of mindset where envy dominates individual self-interest.  Identity politics has helped to revive and strengthen such frictions even in the liberal West, while denying the right to such ethnic pride to dominant white elites, especially in the Anglosphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s more than tyranny of the majority.  The liberal vision (both libertarian and socialist-liberal) has been that ethnic and tribal interests would fade away in the face of economic development.</p>
<p>But in much of the world, identity/ethnic solidarity is so strong that the majority would accept worse outcomes just to spite a successful minority.  While Madison, et al. worried about majoritarian redistribution, they did not focus greatly on the sort of mindset where envy dominates individual self-interest.  Identity politics has helped to revive and strengthen such frictions even in the liberal West, while denying the right to such ethnic pride to dominant white elites, especially in the Anglosphere.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23102</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23102</guid>
		<description>All this time to discover the concept of &quot;tyranny of the majority?&quot;  I thought this was worked out long ago, maybe in the Federalist Papers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this time to discover the concept of &#8220;tyranny of the majority?&#8221;  I thought this was worked out long ago, maybe in the Federalist Papers.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23101</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www390.pair.com/chicagob/blog/004547.php#comment-23101</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There were good reasons why the Indians in Kenya and whites in South Africa, Zimbabwe, and America’s Southern states resisted democratization for generations.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I would lump whites in the American Southern states in with the others. They certainly were not an market-dominant minority being (1) firmly in the majority and (2) not terribly productive. The south&#8217;s long resistance to widespread democracy, even for poor whites had more to do with maintaining the south&#8217;s deeply hierarchal almost feudal social and political system. </p>
<p>Otherwise, I think Chao is on to something.  It&#8217;s simply to tempting to believe that someone who has bested you cheated than it is to believe you need to improve your own game.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4547.html/comment-page-1#comment-23100</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 04:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/archives/2006_09_01_photoncourier_archive.html#115760124414336322&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ralph Peters&lt;/a&gt; has some thoughts which are relevant to this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/archives/2006_09_01_photoncourier_archive.html#115760124414336322" rel="nofollow">Ralph Peters</a> has some thoughts which are relevant to this.</p>
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