I think the lessons of the 1930s was that when you see a threat growing you just can’t be a dove and close your eyes to it hoping it will go away.

Hitler pushed the line over and over and over and over again and they called it peace in their time. Was there peace in Germany during that time? No, Was there peace for the Jews as their demonization began? No. Was there peace in England or France or the US. No. Everyone was anxious. If they sent forces into Germany before Germany was able to do its plan, MILLIONS would not be dead today. Though I guess we would never know what we had prevented.

Islamic Jihad is Nazism plus the Devil. It’s global.

I believe it’s our Kobayashi Maru (Star Trek II reference. The unwinnable situation)

It may be that, as in other areas of human endeavor, our capabilities are actually getting ahead of the problem (I refer the masochistsstout of heart to my overwrought review of Annihilation from Within), and we are, to quote myself, “accelerating toward eucatastrophe.”

Having said all this, I am no utopian. My own belief is that Strauss and Howe are right and that for lack of resolve to endure 10k KIA in this decade, we will see » 100k KIA in the next.

What matters is what happens, not what we wish would have happened or what we’re afraid is going to happen.

Anyway, I just read a very interesting article by Melanie Phillips that I linked to thru Instapundit about Iraq, Iran, and other things. If you read it, let me know what you think.

I enjoy your posts, and this blog in general, very much.

I agree with you in general – of course, Annan was not just greedy but barbarous as well. He put his greed above the lives of many, many others. His willfulness was disastrous. And the continuation not only of our culture (let alone our species) seems to me far more important than death. Indeed, I think the battle is important in Iraq and should be waged. And I believe our western culture has much that is worthwhile and worthy of being defended with our lives, because it has made a life so much better for our children and so much more encouraging of the best in human nature that its loss would be tragic far beyond our borders – but certainly to my children & children’s children, etc.

My point was somewhat different, however. While the majority of us believe in capital punishment, we no longer have public executions. Are you for capital punishment? Would you take your children to an execution? I’m pretty hawkish and pretty nationalistic, but I’m sure my feelings about death, physical pain, etc. are quite different than someone in my shoes 150 years ago. For instance, I have never seen anyone die, I’ve never had a child die, I’ve known people with pain but not unsedated and with long-term chronic illnesses of the kind that were common 150 years ago & I’m sure much more earlier. Of course, I’ve been relatively lucky, but I am 61. I worked at a mental hospital in the sixties and know what madness can be like – as it too often is on the streets after the de-institutionalization. But if I see someone on the streets, I’m likely to think “he’s off his meds” – and feel more pity than fear because I do think that madness can be generally controlled. Sympathy for the retarded and the mentally ill is a given for our society – it was not always so.

But of course in the main, the big, ways I feel like people always have – I want my family – then town, then state, then nation – safe, I want my beliefs to prevail when they are attacked. I would rather we went to war pre-emptively than my daughters were under Sha’ria law. I’d rather we lost people today than fought the kind of war that is likely to come in a future when Iran has armed & encouraged both Sunni & Shia to fight wars likely to spill across the world.

(This must have been a lousy post because I’m spending more time saying what I meant than I did saying it. Of course, however, it is nice to read other’s responses that are interesting.)

My point was that the categories of “hawk” and “dove” are artificial and agenda driven. Of course most people are prepared to fight for “ours”, and against “them”. The so-called modern doves just have a different “ours”, i.e., they seem to identify with those who attack our society, and are unsympathetic to defending it.

I agree that there is a strange belief that life should be danger-free, and a narcisistic element which truly believes that nothing is worth taking a chance on dying to defend, but that is a reflection on and result of a bankrupt cultural orientation which prizes “lifestyle” and “self-fulfillment” above all other values, including defending the larger culture which provides the lifestyle in the first place.

This is all part of the “blank-out” mindset—that mental refusal to deal with threatening, and often contradictory, ideas and beliefs which would lead to a recognition that one’s basic values were incoherent, and that one’s fundamental beliefs needed to be thoroughly reconsidered. It is so much simpler just to pretend that a “higher” rationality and a more sophisticated set of feelings about life renders one’s behaviors and values beyond questioning.

Thus the bizarre adulation for the recently retired Kofi Annan, a completely disreputable character, who has presided over the disembowelment of whatever was left of the UN’s position of moral suasion in the world, but who leaves amid a torrent of complimentary articles in the MSM and laudatory comments from various tranzi types in politics and elsewhere.

If one ignores all the disasters which occurred during his administration, then I guess he’s a pretty great guy and was a terrific SG.

If you don’t let reality get in the way of your beliefs, then anything truly is possible.

I think my headline led to misinterpretation – I’ve done what we often complain newspapers do and used a really lousy headline for what is argued. Pinker would certainly not argue that being a pacifist is normal or biological, etc. It is just that in modern society, we find someone who tortures a cat (even I, who am convinced they suck the breath out of us) more likely to be a psychopath than an entertainer. We find 3,000 deaths in a war a tragedy in a way that earlier peoples did not when considering similar numbers.

It is not that we are less aggressive; our proportions, however, have shifted. We have come to value human life and human pain in a different way. Whether that is because we can expect longer & less pain-filled lives – Pinker’s argument – or that this is a long-term movement (which Pinker’s arguments would also imply) reflecting belief systems that prioritize supra-tribal values is an interesting question.

The argument that we tend to believe those whom we see as our “own” seems to me pretty obvious; that we also would “rather be safe than sorry” and therefore act pre-emptively or at least be prepared for the worst seems also pretty obvious. I think Continetti is right – in part because he assumes some sensible universals.

In fact, the number of true pacifists in human society in general, and the US in particular, is very small, and the core beliefs of pacifism are not representative of any mainstreamm cultural or religious movements, with the specific exceptions of the Ghandian-MLK non-violent social protests, both of which were constantly troubled by members of their movements resorting to violence for any number of reasons.

The ideological focus in this alleged study is to demonize, once again, any position which advocates violence as a legitimate response to certain provocations, and express their shock and horror at the many ways violence sneaks into human social and behavioral affairs, and that it is rewarded, instead of the more desirable “dovishness”, which oft times is not.

But the main constituency of the “dove” movement in the US, and the world in general, is not pacifist at all. A fundamental tenet of the “peace” movements that have come and gone over the last century is that it is only certain social groups for whom violence is illegitimate, i.e., there are many acceptable causes for which a violent response is not only moral, but desirable and inevitable, due to the unbearable nature of the provocation.

Specifically, it has been an all too common facet of “peace movements” in the latter half of the 20th century, and currently, that any military response by the US and its allies is automatically wrong and immoral, while all sorts of violence and mayhem on the part of the opponents of the US is understandable.

There is a pacifist segment of society which condemns violence in any form, and forbids it for any reason. But the “doves” of the popular “peace movements” are not pacifists, they are just on the other side.

Notice, just as one example, the utter disappearence of the much balleyhooed “human shields” that rushed to Iraq to protect the Iraqi’s from the imperialist violence of the evil US and its allies. Now that the violence is coming from our adversaries, where are all the human shields, so concerned about protecting Iraqi’s before? They know better.

It was all symbolism in the first place, predicated on the cynical belief that the US would try to avoid killing them, and, if they were killed, there would be bad publicity about it against the US, as with the story about the girl killed by the Israeli bulldozer. Now that truly indifferent killers are abroad, who would blow them up without a second thought, and no anti-US publicity would result, the oh-so-sanctimonious shields suddenly had other, more important things to do.

The unspoken reality is that “doves” are every bit as situational as “hawks”, they’re just more holier-than-thou about it.

The US bases in Germany don’t seem to be able to affect German politics very much, but they were useful in helping to supply our attempts to stop the genocide in the former Yugoslavia.

But that said, whether man is by nature aggressive or not is an issue that is speculative among evolutionary thinkers, but they do agree that there are instances where not fighting is a much better winning strategy.

Overalla though, America has__________how many KNOWN bases worldwide? If you come reasonably close you will then see what dominating world empire we have become. Yes. We say it is to protect etc but that is patent nonsense. How many troops in Japan? How many in S. Korea? How many in German (protecting against???)
No. We delude ourselves if we think all is merely bringing the world democracy.

Anyone ever play the old game, “Diplomacy”? If you did, you had to encounter situations where the “smart” move was aggression.