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	<title>Comments on: Genes and Culture</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-63600</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 May 2007 19:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-63600</guid>
		<description>&quot;The point cannot be overemphasized: ancestry is not destiny. Cultural diffusion matters; an emphasis on processes, or simple pragmatism, matters; ideas matter. Watch for the spread of English as a first language (the Netherlands), of dollarization (Ecuador, El Salvador), of “Southern Christianity,” of common law legal systems. Most of all, watch for neat definitions of the Anglosphere to become less workable as its boundaries blur. The near future may see the massive, yet bloodless, displacement of the language and folkways of billions of people&quot;

I think that what may be the last stanza in Blake&#039;s &quot;Jerusalem&quot; consiously reflects the wish to be a successful, influential culture.  It is something of an anthem among Britain&#039;s elites, I suspect.  As an American with a diverse genetic background which doesn&#039;t include English ancestry it&#039;s interesting that I identify overwhelmingly with them and their experience.  I know &quot;Jerusalem&quot; is a hymn sung with great emotion at the death of some statesmen there; maybe one of our English cousins would care to elaborate about the consious impulse as it did/does exsist:

&quot;I shall not cease from mental fight,
nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
&#039;til we have builded Jeruselem, here,
in Englands green and gentle land.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The point cannot be overemphasized: ancestry is not destiny. Cultural diffusion matters; an emphasis on processes, or simple pragmatism, matters; ideas matter. Watch for the spread of English as a first language (the Netherlands), of dollarization (Ecuador, El Salvador), of “Southern Christianity,” of common law legal systems. Most of all, watch for neat definitions of the Anglosphere to become less workable as its boundaries blur. The near future may see the massive, yet bloodless, displacement of the language and folkways of billions of people&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that what may be the last stanza in Blake&#8217;s &#8220;Jerusalem&#8221; consiously reflects the wish to be a successful, influential culture.  It is something of an anthem among Britain&#8217;s elites, I suspect.  As an American with a diverse genetic background which doesn&#8217;t include English ancestry it&#8217;s interesting that I identify overwhelmingly with them and their experience.  I know &#8220;Jerusalem&#8221; is a hymn sung with great emotion at the death of some statesmen there; maybe one of our English cousins would care to elaborate about the consious impulse as it did/does exsist:</p>
<p>&#8220;I shall not cease from mental fight,<br />
nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,<br />
&#8217;til we have builded Jeruselem, here,<br />
in Englands green and gentle land.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Sailer</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-63444</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Sailer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2007 20:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-63444</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t your takeaway message -- ancestry is not destiny -- the logical opposite of the first half of your post, which shows that the inhabitants of the British Isles are more homogenous in ancestry than was previously believed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t your takeaway message &#8212; ancestry is not destiny &#8212; the logical opposite of the first half of your post, which shows that the inhabitants of the British Isles are more homogenous in ancestry than was previously believed?</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-62654</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 00:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-62654</guid>
		<description>Perhaps our cultural products are garbage, but I don&#039;t see that as the reason various people object to American culture; they object because their own people love it. They vote with their feet for Hollywood, MacDonalds, blue jeans, and Bay Watch. I&#039;m reminded of the gathering of Francophone nations a few years ago where over half the delegates had to wear translation headphones to understand Chirac.

Is it possible American cultural products aim at the masses while other nations&#039; products aim at the elite? That might explain the worldwide attraction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps our cultural products are garbage, but I don&#8217;t see that as the reason various people object to American culture; they object because their own people love it. They vote with their feet for Hollywood, MacDonalds, blue jeans, and Bay Watch. I&#8217;m reminded of the gathering of Francophone nations a few years ago where over half the delegates had to wear translation headphones to understand Chirac.</p>
<p>Is it possible American cultural products aim at the masses while other nations&#8217; products aim at the elite? That might explain the worldwide attraction.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-60462</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 18:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-60462</guid>
		<description>JXM - America is (1) jazz, and (2) baseball.  OK.  It is also (3) football.  There is a lot individualism within the framework of very fiercely competing teams.  &quot;American life is football by other means.&quot;  Some modern Tocquevill said that, and there is a big element of truth to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JXM &#8211; America is (1) jazz, and (2) baseball.  OK.  It is also (3) football.  There is a lot individualism within the framework of very fiercely competing teams.  &#8220;American life is football by other means.&#8221;  Some modern Tocquevill said that, and there is a big element of truth to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-60461</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 18:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-60461</guid>
		<description>JXM -- Read Alan Macfarlane&#039;s Savage Wars of Peace if you want to know about Japan.  Far from contradicting anything I said, you have put your finger on precisely the other example in the world which bears analogy to England&#039;s level of civil peace due to freedom from invasion.  I referred to the book &lt;a href=&quot;http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004295.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JXM &#8212; Read Alan Macfarlane&#8217;s Savage Wars of Peace if you want to know about Japan.  Far from contradicting anything I said, you have put your finger on precisely the other example in the world which bears analogy to England&#8217;s level of civil peace due to freedom from invasion.  I referred to the book <a href="http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004295.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: JorgXMcKie</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-60276</link>
		<dc:creator>JorgXMcKie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 23:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-60276</guid>
		<description>Hokey-dokey lexington green, then how do you explain Japan?  It had about 4000 years of &quot;— relatively speaking — an extraordinary level of civil peace.&quot;  Why isn&#039;t there a Japanese Sphere?  (I know they tried it in WWII, but look how that turned out.)  I would argue that the Japanese &quot;level of continuity&quot; surely is as great as the UK&#039;s.  I&#039;m not particularly disputing your point, but I think it is not &#039;necessary and sufficient&#039; to explain the phenomenon.

And, Pouncer, it is jazz, but it is also baseball.  Jacques Barzun observed that you&#039;ll never understand American culture unless you understand baseball.  It is a bounded, individualistic game, balanced upon a meta-rule that &quot;thou shalt not take unfair advantage.&quot;  Consider the balk rule or the infield fly rule.  Both are designed, deliberately, to prevent a player or team from being &#039;unfairly&#039; punished for deeds not done.  Classic American attitude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hokey-dokey lexington green, then how do you explain Japan?  It had about 4000 years of &#8220;— relatively speaking — an extraordinary level of civil peace.&#8221;  Why isn&#8217;t there a Japanese Sphere?  (I know they tried it in WWII, but look how that turned out.)  I would argue that the Japanese &#8220;level of continuity&#8221; surely is as great as the UK&#8217;s.  I&#8217;m not particularly disputing your point, but I think it is not &#8216;necessary and sufficient&#8217; to explain the phenomenon.</p>
<p>And, Pouncer, it is jazz, but it is also baseball.  Jacques Barzun observed that you&#8217;ll never understand American culture unless you understand baseball.  It is a bounded, individualistic game, balanced upon a meta-rule that &#8220;thou shalt not take unfair advantage.&#8221;  Consider the balk rule or the infield fly rule.  Both are designed, deliberately, to prevent a player or team from being &#8216;unfairly&#8217; punished for deeds not done.  Classic American attitude.</p>
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		<title>By: pouncer</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-60212</link>
		<dc:creator>pouncer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 16:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-60212</guid>
		<description>&quot;We’re like an orchestra that is always tuning up, every instrument bleating and honking up and down its own scales, indifferent to the others.&quot;

No. 

We are jazz. 

If I have to explain that, you ain&#039;t gonna understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We’re like an orchestra that is always tuning up, every instrument bleating and honking up and down its own scales, indifferent to the others.&#8221;</p>
<p>No. </p>
<p>We are jazz. </p>
<p>If I have to explain that, you ain&#8217;t gonna understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-59902</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 22:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-59902</guid>
		<description>Another thought occurs to me.  One of Macfarlane&#039;s points, which he derived from Maitland and others, is that England led the way into the modern world because it had enjoyed -- relatively speaking -- an extraordinary level of civil peace.  Thus for centuries, social and physical capital had been able to slowly accumulate, creating the preconditions for the takeoff of the Industrial Revolution.  We know that most of the villages recorded in the Domesday Book were present seven centuries later in the 19th century, and we know from archeology that many of these same sites and even particular walled fields, have been marked off since prehistoric times.  The fact that the population has never been uprooted is further evidence that this -- probably unique -- level of continuity has characterized England since prehistoric times.  The Mongols, we know, would tear whole societies up by the roots.  The volkerwanderung of the Germanic peoples had shuffled the ethnic deck in Europe during the collapse of the Roman Empire, though perhaps less than we think.  But England had absorbed wave after wave of rulers, while maintaining a basic continuity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought occurs to me.  One of Macfarlane&#8217;s points, which he derived from Maitland and others, is that England led the way into the modern world because it had enjoyed &#8212; relatively speaking &#8212; an extraordinary level of civil peace.  Thus for centuries, social and physical capital had been able to slowly accumulate, creating the preconditions for the takeoff of the Industrial Revolution.  We know that most of the villages recorded in the Domesday Book were present seven centuries later in the 19th century, and we know from archeology that many of these same sites and even particular walled fields, have been marked off since prehistoric times.  The fact that the population has never been uprooted is further evidence that this &#8212; probably unique &#8212; level of continuity has characterized England since prehistoric times.  The Mongols, we know, would tear whole societies up by the roots.  The volkerwanderung of the Germanic peoples had shuffled the ethnic deck in Europe during the collapse of the Roman Empire, though perhaps less than we think.  But England had absorbed wave after wave of rulers, while maintaining a basic continuity.</p>
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		<title>By: James C. Bennett</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-59678</link>
		<dc:creator>James C. Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 03:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-59678</guid>
		<description>&quot;Class conflict in most pre-industrial societies is actually the conflict between the occupier and the occupied.&quot;

This is why it was a revolutionary statement when the French adopted the famous textbook starting &quot;Our ancestors, the Gauls.&quot;  Gauls, not Franks, you see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Class conflict in most pre-industrial societies is actually the conflict between the occupier and the occupied.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is why it was a revolutionary statement when the French adopted the famous textbook starting &#8220;Our ancestors, the Gauls.&#8221;  Gauls, not Franks, you see.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-59597</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 16:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-59597</guid>
		<description>It is culture, institutions, law, etc. that make the Anglosphere distinct.  The fact that various groups conquered Britain and Ireland and did not replace the gene pool only shows this even more strongly.  It was not who was the biological parent of whom that mattered.  What mattered was how they went about their business.  

As to whether the Anglospere can somehow &quot;take over&quot;, I don&#039;t know.  I do not think this should be any sort of goal.  Why ask for trouble?  You do your thing, we&#039;ll do ours, just don&#039;t send us any suicide bombers.  Other than that, minimal rule sets for trade.  

As to our &quot;charm&quot; industries, our popular culture is a cataract of septic garbage.  It is our weakest point, a strategic weakness.  People hate us who would not hate us if they actually knew us.  They hate the detestable image depicted in entertainment products which originate here.  The half-baked attempts by the government to offset this tsunami of garbage by sending Karen Hughes on a speaking tour is too pathetic to even be funny.

&quot;...watch for neat definitions of the Anglosphere to become less workable as its boundaries blur.&quot;

Bennett has been talking about this all along.  The Anglosphere is much bigger and more diffuse at the edges than any simple aggregation of English-settled countries.

&quot;The near future may see the massive, yet bloodless, displacement of the language and folkways of billions of people.&quot;  Maybe, but this does not follow from the example of England.  The displacements, even of elites, was a bloody process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is culture, institutions, law, etc. that make the Anglosphere distinct.  The fact that various groups conquered Britain and Ireland and did not replace the gene pool only shows this even more strongly.  It was not who was the biological parent of whom that mattered.  What mattered was how they went about their business.  </p>
<p>As to whether the Anglospere can somehow &#8220;take over&#8221;, I don&#8217;t know.  I do not think this should be any sort of goal.  Why ask for trouble?  You do your thing, we&#8217;ll do ours, just don&#8217;t send us any suicide bombers.  Other than that, minimal rule sets for trade.  </p>
<p>As to our &#8220;charm&#8221; industries, our popular culture is a cataract of septic garbage.  It is our weakest point, a strategic weakness.  People hate us who would not hate us if they actually knew us.  They hate the detestable image depicted in entertainment products which originate here.  The half-baked attempts by the government to offset this tsunami of garbage by sending Karen Hughes on a speaking tour is too pathetic to even be funny.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;watch for neat definitions of the Anglosphere to become less workable as its boundaries blur.&#8221;</p>
<p>Bennett has been talking about this all along.  The Anglosphere is much bigger and more diffuse at the edges than any simple aggregation of English-settled countries.</p>
<p>&#8220;The near future may see the massive, yet bloodless, displacement of the language and folkways of billions of people.&#8221;  Maybe, but this does not follow from the example of England.  The displacements, even of elites, was a bloody process.</p>
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		<title>By: veryretired</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-59595</link>
		<dc:creator>veryretired</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 16:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-59595</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the interesting article. My only comment is related to your point about cultural diffusion, if I am understanding you correctly.

I am frequently bemused by the surprise and indignation many people in the US exhibit when they confront the hostility of other cultures towards Americans and our style of operating. The animus always shocks us, but the underlying cause is very clear and, really, very obvious:

The western belief in individuality is terribly threatening to most of the basic tenets of traditional cultures. 

Whether expressed as religious tolerance, political debate, party factionalism, racial and gender equality, or the cultural tendency towards social informality, the concept of each person as a discrete entity with a wide range of options in any number of areas of life is shocking, and threatening, to members of a culture for whom difference generally equals death or banishment.

I have found this aspect of an analysis of how our culture affects others to be very helpful in understanding the various conflicts we have been engaged in over the last few centuries, and glaringly obvious in the current confrontation with radical islamicism. Religious tolerance and gender equality by themselves ensure an almost unsolvable conflict between the world views of the west and islam.

Indeed, there are repeated and relentless attempts to devalue the individual in our own culture, and impose a &quot;rule of uniformity&quot; from which no deviation is allowed. PC codes, multi-cultural tribalism, race/gender studies, and the current pronouncements of anathema against any who doubt the &quot;approved&quot; version of climate change dogma are obvious examples of the tendency in our culture to revert to the traditional, and retreat to the comforting collective ideal of a culture in which everybody thinks and believes all the same things.

I suppose, in a very real way, it is the cultural cacaphony of individualism that disturbs people in other, more traditional, cultures. We&#039;re like an orchestra that is always tuning up, every instrument bleating and honking up and down its own scales, indifferent to the others.

We are all seeking to reach our own, individual &quot;perfect pitches&quot;, without regard to the noise from the rest of the band. I would imagine it does seem rather noisy and chaotic when viewed from the back of the auditorium.

I can&#039;t imagine how it&#039;s received when, every once in a while, the whole orchestra plays together, and a man walks on the moon. It must seem like witchcraft or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the interesting article. My only comment is related to your point about cultural diffusion, if I am understanding you correctly.</p>
<p>I am frequently bemused by the surprise and indignation many people in the US exhibit when they confront the hostility of other cultures towards Americans and our style of operating. The animus always shocks us, but the underlying cause is very clear and, really, very obvious:</p>
<p>The western belief in individuality is terribly threatening to most of the basic tenets of traditional cultures. </p>
<p>Whether expressed as religious tolerance, political debate, party factionalism, racial and gender equality, or the cultural tendency towards social informality, the concept of each person as a discrete entity with a wide range of options in any number of areas of life is shocking, and threatening, to members of a culture for whom difference generally equals death or banishment.</p>
<p>I have found this aspect of an analysis of how our culture affects others to be very helpful in understanding the various conflicts we have been engaged in over the last few centuries, and glaringly obvious in the current confrontation with radical islamicism. Religious tolerance and gender equality by themselves ensure an almost unsolvable conflict between the world views of the west and islam.</p>
<p>Indeed, there are repeated and relentless attempts to devalue the individual in our own culture, and impose a &#8220;rule of uniformity&#8221; from which no deviation is allowed. PC codes, multi-cultural tribalism, race/gender studies, and the current pronouncements of anathema against any who doubt the &#8220;approved&#8221; version of climate change dogma are obvious examples of the tendency in our culture to revert to the traditional, and retreat to the comforting collective ideal of a culture in which everybody thinks and believes all the same things.</p>
<p>I suppose, in a very real way, it is the cultural cacaphony of individualism that disturbs people in other, more traditional, cultures. We&#8217;re like an orchestra that is always tuning up, every instrument bleating and honking up and down its own scales, indifferent to the others.</p>
<p>We are all seeking to reach our own, individual &#8220;perfect pitches&#8221;, without regard to the noise from the rest of the band. I would imagine it does seem rather noisy and chaotic when viewed from the back of the auditorium.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t imagine how it&#8217;s received when, every once in a while, the whole orchestra plays together, and a man walks on the moon. It must seem like witchcraft or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/4946.html/comment-page-1#comment-59592</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 15:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/004946.html#comment-59592</guid>
		<description>Most historical &quot;conquest&quot; have been little more than one militarist caste supplanting another. It is little wonder that very little genetic change occurs in the broader population. 

The common pattern in human society is one or more ethnic groups subjugated by a militarily dominate minority ethnic group. Usually group A invades and subjugates group B (quite often while group B was trying to do the same thing to group C). Group A becomes the upper class and group B the lower classes. Class conflict in most pre-industrial societies is actually the conflict between the occupier and the occupied. The dominate group quite often speaks a different language and has a substantially different culture than the vast majority of the population. Only over many generations do the two cultures amalgamate into something looking like a unified culture.   

In order to hijack and entire society of this kind it is only necessary to replace the most elite of the dominate group. Language and custom percolate down the status hierarchy as lower status individuals mimic those of higher status. It is really only necessary to transport a few thousand elites to a new region to spread a culture and make it appear through the distance of history that some kind of mass migration occurred.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most historical &#8220;conquest&#8221; have been little more than one militarist caste supplanting another. It is little wonder that very little genetic change occurs in the broader population. </p>
<p>The common pattern in human society is one or more ethnic groups subjugated by a militarily dominate minority ethnic group. Usually group A invades and subjugates group B (quite often while group B was trying to do the same thing to group C). Group A becomes the upper class and group B the lower classes. Class conflict in most pre-industrial societies is actually the conflict between the occupier and the occupied. The dominate group quite often speaks a different language and has a substantially different culture than the vast majority of the population. Only over many generations do the two cultures amalgamate into something looking like a unified culture.   </p>
<p>In order to hijack and entire society of this kind it is only necessary to replace the most elite of the dominate group. Language and custom percolate down the status hierarchy as lower status individuals mimic those of higher status. It is really only necessary to transport a few thousand elites to a new region to spread a culture and make it appear through the distance of history that some kind of mass migration occurred.</p>
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