You don’t have much sense of irony, do you.

I don’t think the cindy’s of this world owe the rest of us an apology, exactly, for being so gullible, self satisfied, and generally ignorant of the forces and historical events that shaped the world they were lucky enough to be allowed to vote in. But if the last six years isn’t sufficient education for them to stop and reconsider their totally absurd sense that they understand anything (from what their old friends were thinking to what shapes the political scene) then nothing ever will. You know, when I oversalt the stew, or burn the pan of brownies because I put the oven on too high, I don’t necessarily apologize to my family. But I take a good hard look at what I was doing and I vow never to do it again.

aimai

aimai

Don’t feed the trolls– it only encourages them. Any reasonable person (I like to think of myself as one) can see them for what they are– their preference for ad hominem attacks, the tone in which they write, and their choice of words display their meanness and smallness of mind.

Why give them the satisfaction they crave– the knowledge that they can get you to waste your time trying to rebut that which is not worth rebutting, and is in any case an exercise in futility?

Thanks for your response. Its so badly written that I literally can’t tell what you think.

Take “some belief systems don’t kill others…” Which would those be, exactly, and where in Texas can they be found? Certainly some christian groups actively opposed the killing of others we call the Iraq war. The Pope and the methodist church actively opposed the war but I didn’t see any too many Texas christians or the christian in the white house subscribing to that view. And though *I* am opposed to the death penalty, honor killings, and death in forced childbirth I don’t see that the strong movement against those things which include, of course, muslim and non muslim peoples, is wholly identified with any particular belief system. Do let me know which belief system you are talking about–other than buddhism. Christianity, which I presume you are hinting at, has a less than stellar history on the violence front.

If you are talking about the Englightenment, which I personally am all for, the current administration has pushed the clock back on many important Englightenment insights and customs: habeus corpus, the rule of law, civil service over patronage, a movement towards equality rather than away from it, exaltation and respect for human freedom, the love of reason, suspicion of blind faith, exaltation of and respect for the scientific method. This current administration and the republican party that has spawned it has produced the shocking sight of actual presidential candidates rushing to affirm their ignorance of the scientific method and the advances of science in favor of the know-nothing religiosity of a pre scientific age. Evolution? what’s that? Geology? a myth.

As for whatever garbled theories you have about the relationship of “the west” to “islam” it does not now and never has been a “clash of civilizations” but an interaction of mutual interests. They have what we want–oil, and we had (until recently) a monopoly on what they wanted: democracy, science, and money. If relations have broken down it isn’t because they stopped liking our money, but because we started screwing around even more with their local cultures and political systems.

Let me clue you in on something, since its actually something I know quite a bit about. There isn’t a single “islam” but many islams. We have been actively supporting one branch of Islam, Wahabi islam, as we have as a country actively been working with and financially supporting Saudia Arabia since the 1940’s. We have supported and fostered their very repressive version of islam over more liberal versions because we needed their oil. In the case of Saddam we supported him despite his internal terrorism of his people and we supported and encouraged his eight year war with Iran, which led to millions of deaths, because it suited us. We had been, essentially, at war with Iran since we deposed their democratically elected leader Mossadegh a decision that led directly to the eventual overthrow of the shah and the hostage situation. Osama bin laden is a product of our first love, Saudi Arabia, crossed with our second love, Iraq and Iraqi oil. In order to throw saddam out of Kuwait in the first gulf war, we positioned troops in Saudia Arabia where Mecca is. That was considered a huge slap in the face to powerful Saudi families (other than the royal family) and we essentially stepped into the middle of a quiet feud within Saudi politics. Osama bin laden attacked us to make a statement to other muslim radicals around the world and to demonstrate to them that our country was at war with them. He got what he wanted and we wound up attacking Iraq and deposing a *secular* muslim leader and creating a vaccuum in Iraq that various religious factions rushed to fill.

Well, why does any of that matter? According to you, it doesn’t. Nothing we have done as a country, no money we have spent, no people we have dealt with, no bombs we have dropped affects your opinion that we represent the apotheosis of civilization: we don’t kill people (over religion), we don’t kill people (over race), we don’t oppress women (even though, of course, we do when it comes to population and birth control issues.)* Let me footnote that point by explaining to you very, very, slowly that I don’t deny for a moment that you probably think that birth control and abortion are issues of “pro life or pro death” and not anything else. Its a fact, however, that very mysteriously your president and his policy people end up on the side of the muslim bigots and anti-feminists that you claim to deplore on this issue. If your policies and the policies of the (muslim) people you think are the worst of the worst are identical its not exactly clear to me how the rest of us are to distinguish them. Is it ok to let a woman die of a rape induced pregnancy because you choose to forbid her access to abortion for *your* moral purposes but not ok for an imam to do so for *his* moral purposes? I fail to see the difference.

You are right, I angry and quite angry specifically with people who voted for Bush twice and refuse to apologize. You see, ignorance is pretty much natural in our political system once. But twice? And now? No. I take responsibility for my own actions, and for the actions of my elected leaders. When my country bombs civilians and children, I accept that what is done in my name is done *by me* unless I protest it. When my country tortures in my name and on my behalf, I accept that it is as though it were done *by me* unless I protest it.

To the extent that you are satisfied with what your vote has brought you and the rest of the world I don’t expect you to accept any blame. Certainly, you don’t need to apologize. you did what you thought was right, and you still think it is right. But just have the courage and decency to admit that what was done was done with your approval, in your name, and as though done y you. That means that when a bomb was dropped on some Iraqi children you did it. Not some belief system, but you. When our soldiers were sent off without enough body armour, when the wounded come back to bugs in their food at walter reed–you didn’t protest. When the President ordered an end to Habeus Corpus and the creation of secret prisons–you didn’t care or you thought it was swell.

You may be able to square all that with a very comfortable view of yourself. In fact, you appear quite comfortable with the choices you and yours have made for the rest of the country and the rest of the world. But oddly enough I see really no difference between the woman who pulls the trigger on death and destruction from the comfort of her own house, professing either not to know what is done in her name or not to care, and some hypothetical islamic bogeyman who does the same face to face with his enemy. People are dying right now because of decisions you acceded to politically and that you still champion. What is the difference between you and some mujahadeen other than dress and speech? That your intentions were good? Tell it to the marines.

aimai

Of course, it is difficult to engage with someone who makes some of your arguments – I’m supposed to apologize for voting for Bush, admit that my writing is incoherent, and acknowledge that your positions are obviously correct, only misunderstood by someone with an “abiding contempt for facts, history, and reality.”

May I first point out that neither Jonathan nor I use the word “nice” although it appears repeatedly in your posts. Jonathan doesn’t know me in any personal way, but that is irrelevant – neither he nor I see “niceness” as having much to do with the validity of someone’s argument – although, of course, we may rhetorically stipulate that the other is arguing in good faith. Much of your argument, on the contrary, discusses the motives of those who think differently than you.

Let’s take one of your arguments:

What “nice” seems to mean to them, in that it is often rhetorically opposed to those “not nice islamofascists” is that they wouldn’t, themselves, actually kill someone they thought was in the wrong religion/wrong sexual preference/wrong race.

Well, frankly, it is fairly important to note that some belief systems don’t kill others because they are any of these things; in addition, it wouldn’t hurt to pay some attention to the arguments for and against invading and then staying in Iraq. I suspect many would argue for the secularization of the laws of these countries, for a greater emphasis upon the internalization of guilt, a richer tolerance of difference, an opening of the great market of religion as well as ideas. Few (no one I’ve heard speak or write) sees the goal as the conversion of its people. The people being killed now by those equipped by Syria and Iran and those killed under Saddam were of “the wrong race” – assuming you are referring to Iraqi citizens. (Of course, race is your term and I’m not quite sure what you mean here.)

I assume it is the incoherence of my prose that led you to ignore the assumptions and arguments of Bawer’s book – a man who has seen that accommodations with Sharia law are not pretty. I assume it is my contempt for facts that the tens of thousands of sorties over tbe no-fly zone to protect the Kurds might indicate less that war was declared on Iraq by Bush Jr. than that the war under Bush Sr. never ended.

Reality is engaging with what is and with the arguments you oppose. It is not useful to imply that the motives of others are inferior to one’s own. (I would argue it is also not realistic, but I tend to have an optimistic view of human nature that assumes others are both moral and rational.) While I am willing to grant you your “niceness”, I’m not willing to grant you your interpretation of my motives.

Nor the “reality” of your arguments. Abortions, six years into his term, are still more available and more numerous here than in any Western country (of course, Russia’s rate is higher). Acknowledging that others might view abortion and even birth control differently than you do might lead you to make your arguments for both in a more thoughtful way. This is the virtue of such modes of argument – it helps us think out our own positions. Saying our policies are like those of the Sudan and Iran ignores the way our policies are derived and what they represent; it certainly ignores reality.

And I recognize we all are less rational when angry – and you clearly are angry. And I’ll acknowledge that my argument should have been better presented; one that invokes anger and self-righteousness is probably not reasonable nor clear enough. Nonetheless, your comments, too, are the kind that are likely to harden opposition.

My point was that you were ignoring the substance of Ginny’s arguments. You’re still doing it. The gist of the argument in your latest comment is that 1) Ginny supports the policies of the Bush administration, 2) Bush and/or his policies are evil and, therefore, 3) Ginny’s arguments are ridiculous. This would be a shoddy argument even if I accepted your assumptions about Bush’s evilness and the evilness of his policies, and I don’t. It seems to me that the questions Ginny raises deserve serious consideration in light of the history and philosophical underpinnings of Muslim societies, radical Islam and the West. Instead, you and the other commenters dismiss Ginny’s concerns because you don’t approve of how she voted.

As for your inferences about the tone of Ginny’s post and about what you imagine to be her real nature beneath the surface (i.e., you have no evidence for your slurs), all I can do is reiterate that you and your ideological pals have a serious problem because you can’t handle civil disagreement. How do you expect to convince anybody of anything if every contentious discussion about current events or public policy becomes a sneerfest where you dismiss people you disagree with as stupid or evil?

The great irony of this exchange is that Ginny is obviously deeply committed to tolerance and civility while the people who parachute into this blog to call her a bigot are themselves intolerant of anyone whose views differ from their own.

As for all Ginny’s talk of “her girls” the Bush administration which she charges the rest of us with “BDS”for opposing has routinely stood with the most retrograde islamic cultural standards when pursuing its policies against abortion and birth control around the world. We are the only industrialized country to agree with Sudan and Iran on birth control and abortion and we have pushed those far right/islamic attitudes towards ginny’s girls whenever president bush and his right wing enablers have been able to do so in international fora. The whole love affair with the women of Afghanistan is another example of the ways in which Ginny’s girls (here and there) are betrayed by ginny’s daddy figure bush. It was feminists like me who opposed and oppose the talibanization of Afghanistan. Bush was willing ot turn a blind eye to everything going on in Afghanistan until 9/11 and even went so far as to offer millions in aid to the Taliban despite what we knew they were doing to women there. And for all the hard work and great intentions of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq women in those countries are not only no better off they are substantially worse off than they were before. Certainly women in Iraq are worse off in a sectarian civil war than they were under secular but awful Saddam.

What I object to in Ginny’s writing, aside from the abysmal and incoherent prose, is the magisterial tone of sweet reason and light that masks what appears to be a deep and abiding contempt for facts, history, and reality. I don’t personally object to Ginny. As I said I know many Ginnys and if its not too difficult for them or it doesn’t take too much thought or time they can be wonderful friends and neighbors. As much as anyone can be a wonderful friend and neighbor if, while you are out shopping and taking the kids to school, they give your housekeys to a drunken, psychopathic, spend thrift, mass murderer and tell him to spend what he wants and do what he wants with your stuff. When you get back to find the house wrecked, the copper plumbing pipes gone, the cat strangled, and the bank account looted this neighbor looks at you with pity and contempt and says “well, who would have guessed he’d be this bad at decidering! He sure seemed to know what he was doing. You never liked him anyway. What’s wrong with you? Are you unamerican or something?”

aimai

You might want to pick up a copy of Strunk & White.

I’ve been struck by how many of them have become politicized, beset by BDS.

The pretense that Bush hasn’t earned the disapproval of two thirds of the country (and most of the rest of the planet) is a sure sign of BEMS (Bush excuse-making syndrome). Get help.

It looks like you and Ginny define “conservative” differently, in which case why not drop the labels and focus instead on what she says? Some of her positions are typically conservative, others may not be, but in any case they are her positions and can be evaluated on their individual merits. You might even agree with some of them. Surely her observations and perspective, which are atypical, have some value even if you don’t agree with her conclusions.

Her concern about the threat to our society posed by radical Islam, which I share, may or may not be reasonable (I wish it weren’t) but is it not an empirical question? People who express concern about this threat draw a parallel between American society and that of Europe where, on the margins and in some cases more centrally, governments have been appeasing radical Islamists and trying to silence critics of Islam and of appeasement. The people making this argument also point out the long history of anti-western terror attacks, and of hostile, imperialistic statements by the Islamists themselves. I think it is at best much too early to dismiss that threat as you seem to do. Moreover, to make light of the Islamist threat to our society while suggesting that the threat posed by American religious conservatives is in any serious way comparable seems like an inversion of reality. And if your fellow citizens who are peaceful religious conservatives are such a big threat, why is it so ridiculous, to the point where many “progressives” are not even willing to discuss it seriously, to consider that a worldwide movement of Islamic fundamentalists who preach violence and conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims is not perhaps the bigger problem?

You know, “conservative” is a particular word with fairly serious political connotations. It doesn’t mean whatever cindy means when she says it. It doesn’t mean “very nice people who are patriotic” and it doesn’t mean “people who remember world war II” and it doesn’t mean “people who think hard about geopolitics and don’t like Ishwerwood but really like gay people.” It just doesn’t mean those things. It means the *opposite of progressive.* Cindy may want to reconcile her tremendous fear of the muslim hordes and the “non western tradition” with the history of actual political progressivism which has given us (among other things) habeus corpus, the right to free expression, religious liberty, the weekend, a food and drug administration etc…etc…etc… but none of these are “conservative” things. So when she gently and nauseatingly chides her (former) gay friends on their own behalf, explaining (as far as I can tell, since her prose really is excerable) that they don’t know how good they’ve got it here–well, I’m sickened. The current administration, which she appears to be defending, isn’t “conservative” in any particular sense if by that we mean “conserving” our political heritage–they’ve tossed that right out the window in favor of torture, pre-emptive war, spying on US citizens etc…Cindy seems to think its “conservative” to be patriotic but, of course, the rest of us think its conservative to protect the rights we do have, extend those rights to everyone we can, and not to kill civilians in a country with which we weren’t at war. I object strenously to Cindy claiming the mantle of conservativism when she doesn’t seem to know what it means and I object to her posing as an expert on what gays need and want when she has only the most condescending and blinkered things to say about her “Friends.” With friends like these, who needs enemies.

And as for her daughters–well, I’ve got daughters too. And I’m just as worried about their rights to education, health, and safety in this country as it tries to placate america’s taliban as I am that somehow, by some process that is utterly unclear, we will wake up under sharia law. When the citizen muslim population of this country gets as big and as angry and as activist as the “conservative” right wing christian religious movement I’ll start to worry about sharia here. Until then? Its just more childish fear mongering.

As for civility? well, its in the eye of the beholder. I’m tired of the cindy’s of the world whining about their return to fear as the motivating force for their political and civic lives. Cowardice isn’t an American virtue, even when it gets dressed up with references to a distant english language education.

aimai

Obviously, some people don’t value civil disagreement. That’s a fact of life, like motion sickness or mosquitoes. What I don’t understand is how such people get along in the world. Do they launch into a tirade of snark and insults every time they disagree with their spouse or coworker or the kid at the supermarket checkout about something? Or is the abuse reserved for people whose positions on particular topics make them “the other”? Or do they physically avoid all people with whom they disagree? Being a deep thinker can’t be as easy as it looks. Maybe some of these people will share their secrets with us.

Oh, and as for your blithering, self regarding, essay–you don’t speak for the rest of us suburban matrons. I’m proud to live in a state that legalized gay marriage, and proud to know many gay families. They deserve respect and support not only from muslims around the world (which they may or may not get) but also from their fellow citizens who have no excuse other than bigotry and hatred not to accord them equal rights and free expression.

aimai

Smoke up another bowl, Ginny. Sprinkle a little more angel dust in it this time.

The only change that I have heard from the right is an argument against a proposed new right, only lately promoted by rights groups – gay marriage. This is not an additional restraint on gay lives but rather a belief that this is a right that has insufficient grounding in the institutions and traditions of our culture. I have not seen any additional restraints of gay sex or gay lives. Perhaps I missed something – have various laws been added to the books to persecute these groups? I thought the additional laws tended to be of hate crimes against such anti-homosexual bigotry. More and more businesses are treating homosexual partners as married partners in terms of hiring, insurance and retirement. You find an understandable paranoia; I see it often being manufactured.

And, of course, Bawer’s point and mine as well would be to compare those examples with Sharia law.

I would not argue there is not some bigotry on the right toward homosexuals – but I have seen that on the left as well. However, it seems to me obvious that what many fear in backing such movements as the Defense of Marriage Act is not homosexuality but rather the further break up of the family. I don’t think it will make much difference – I think divorce, changed attitudes toward giving birth and child raising have changed our definition of marriage in my lifetime; these have often undermined marriage and gay marriage may point to its importance or make it more fragile – I’m not sure which. But others quite honestly believe that it will hurt the institution of marriage. If the breakdown of this basic building block of society isn’t something to fear, I’m not sure what there is to fear in terms of society as a whole.

Self-consciousness is always helpful; when we see ourselves purely as victims we tend to lose the long view.

You’re drawing a false parallel here. One side feels threatened legitimately, because they are threatened. Your right-wing friends deny the rights of lgbt folks as couples, parents and individuals. Some in your crowd would deny them their freedom or worse.

The other side has been worked into a lather based on a small minded fear of the other, getting worked up about an absolutely meaningless “threat.” And you’re defending them and perpetuating their silly paranoia.

Some friend you are.

…hoo boy.