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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;The Victorians Were Supermen&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html</link>
	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Bear</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237832</link>
		<dc:creator>Bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237832</guid>
		<description>Around 2000 BC the ancestors to the Victorians built Stonehenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Around 2000 BC the ancestors to the Victorians built Stonehenge.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237674</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237674</guid>
		<description>Celebrim: I understand.

I have a feeling that He who is behind Christianity will be here Himself not before long to fix things directly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celebrim: I understand.</p>
<p>I have a feeling that He who is behind Christianity will be here Himself not before long to fix things directly.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: celebrim</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237641</link>
		<dc:creator>celebrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237641</guid>
		<description>&quot;...disqualify the very groups you are trying to correct.&quot;

Err... that&#039;s trying to &lt;em&gt;protect&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;disqualify the very groups you are trying to correct.&#8221;</p>
<p>Err&#8230; that&#8217;s trying to <em>protect</em>.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: celebrim</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237637</link>
		<dc:creator>celebrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237637</guid>
		<description>&quot;I wasn’t working from a religious standpoint at all. I’m not sure I like your answer...&quot;

Believe me, I don&#039;t like my answer either.

&quot;...such as restricting who can vote based on some sort of cognitive or meritorious qualification.&quot;

Doesn&#039;t work, because the corrupting deginerative forces quickly come to control the selection process and use it to disqualify the very groups you are trying to correct.  Else, the group set to protect the society from the deginerative forces, gets all proudful and self-righteous and before long they aren&#039;t just limiting who is enfranchised, but who has access to basic civil services, then basic civil rights, and not long after that they are loading some scapegoat group onto box cars and wheeling them into gas chambers. 

You don&#039;t have to take my answer on religious terms.  The important point isn&#039;t whether or not my religion is the right one, though I would argue that it is, the important point is that you can never create the requisite culture through statist policies.  Attempting to solve all the worlds ills through Statist means - as if man was primarily a political animal and his problems fundamentally political - is the great error of the 20th century.  It&#039;s visible in dramatic ways with the failure of Communism, and less dramatically but equally visible with the rise in America of Christianity as a political movement rather than a spiritual one.  Christianity isn&#039;t a political movement, and it will fail as a political movement.  If terms like &#039;spiritual&#039; make you uncomfortable, then Christianity is cultural technology which has evolved to create a literate, tolerant, progressive society with a high degree of personal integrity.  The dream of the Left through the 20th century has been to replace Christianity with an irreligious social technology that accomplishes the same purposes, but so far from where I&#039;m standing they seem to be failing pretty miserably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I wasn’t working from a religious standpoint at all. I’m not sure I like your answer&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Believe me, I don&#8217;t like my answer either.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;such as restricting who can vote based on some sort of cognitive or meritorious qualification.&#8221;</p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t work, because the corrupting deginerative forces quickly come to control the selection process and use it to disqualify the very groups you are trying to correct.  Else, the group set to protect the society from the deginerative forces, gets all proudful and self-righteous and before long they aren&#8217;t just limiting who is enfranchised, but who has access to basic civil services, then basic civil rights, and not long after that they are loading some scapegoat group onto box cars and wheeling them into gas chambers. </p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to take my answer on religious terms.  The important point isn&#8217;t whether or not my religion is the right one, though I would argue that it is, the important point is that you can never create the requisite culture through statist policies.  Attempting to solve all the worlds ills through Statist means &#8211; as if man was primarily a political animal and his problems fundamentally political &#8211; is the great error of the 20th century.  It&#8217;s visible in dramatic ways with the failure of Communism, and less dramatically but equally visible with the rise in America of Christianity as a political movement rather than a spiritual one.  Christianity isn&#8217;t a political movement, and it will fail as a political movement.  If terms like &#8216;spiritual&#8217; make you uncomfortable, then Christianity is cultural technology which has evolved to create a literate, tolerant, progressive society with a high degree of personal integrity.  The dream of the Left through the 20th century has been to replace Christianity with an irreligious social technology that accomplishes the same purposes, but so far from where I&#8217;m standing they seem to be failing pretty miserably.</p>
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		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237522</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237522</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t working from a religious standpoint at all. I&#039;m not sure I like your answer.. though I dont disagree that it has a certain validity to it.

Our system of government requires a populace of a certain education and  self-control.   Self-control is out the window.. and education is rapidly denigrating.

I attribute a lot of this to the Left (if I had to pick a quick and simple label) and their purposeful deconstruction of the foundations of the nation. (I really dont want to use the term Left but cant think of another)

I see no way of countering this without the creation of structures that are specifically designed to guard against the deconstruction... such as restricting who can vote based on some sort of cognitive or meritorious qualification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t working from a religious standpoint at all. I&#8217;m not sure I like your answer.. though I dont disagree that it has a certain validity to it.</p>
<p>Our system of government requires a populace of a certain education and  self-control.   Self-control is out the window.. and education is rapidly denigrating.</p>
<p>I attribute a lot of this to the Left (if I had to pick a quick and simple label) and their purposeful deconstruction of the foundations of the nation. (I really dont want to use the term Left but cant think of another)</p>
<p>I see no way of countering this without the creation of structures that are specifically designed to guard against the deconstruction&#8230; such as restricting who can vote based on some sort of cognitive or meritorious qualification.</p>
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		<title>By: celebrim</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237517</link>
		<dc:creator>celebrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237517</guid>
		<description>&quot;Or do we just let the culture decay into an unsalvagable wreck?&quot;

You can&#039;t force men to be good.  If you try, you only increase the evil. 

Christians generally believe that once this falling away begins, the only way to get out of it is wait until the culture decays into an unsalvagable wreck. Then and only then will the hubris of man change into an honest and humble quest for answers, and then and only then will the divine muse find ready vessels with which the voice of God may be amplified.

So, pretty much the only thing you can do is store the salt away so that when things do fall apart, you&#039;ll have something salty left to rebuild the culture with.  Meanwhile, you pray that God will be merciful and shorten the days of our suffering.

When the salt of the earth are all the remains and truly our as a voice crying out in the wilderness, then comes the promise of redemption.  Meanwhile, try not to fret to much about things outside your control.  We aren&#039;t called to save the world, just our neighbor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Or do we just let the culture decay into an unsalvagable wreck?&#8221;</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t force men to be good.  If you try, you only increase the evil. </p>
<p>Christians generally believe that once this falling away begins, the only way to get out of it is wait until the culture decays into an unsalvagable wreck. Then and only then will the hubris of man change into an honest and humble quest for answers, and then and only then will the divine muse find ready vessels with which the voice of God may be amplified.</p>
<p>So, pretty much the only thing you can do is store the salt away so that when things do fall apart, you&#8217;ll have something salty left to rebuild the culture with.  Meanwhile, you pray that God will be merciful and shorten the days of our suffering.</p>
<p>When the salt of the earth are all the remains and truly our as a voice crying out in the wilderness, then comes the promise of redemption.  Meanwhile, try not to fret to much about things outside your control.  We aren&#8217;t called to save the world, just our neighbor.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Goergens</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237508</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Goergens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237508</guid>
		<description>Damn, &#039;Wilhelminians&#039;, not Wilheminians, of course</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn, &#8216;Wilhelminians&#8217;, not Wilheminians, of course</p>
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		<title>By: Ralf Goergens</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237507</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralf Goergens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237507</guid>
		<description>Well, they met their Kryptonite: The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/konzern/geschichte_wilhelm.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wilheminians&lt;/a&gt;   :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, they met their Kryptonite: The <a href="http://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/konzern/geschichte_wilhelm.html" rel="nofollow">Wilheminians</a>   :)</p>
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		<title>By: Steampunk</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237506</link>
		<dc:creator>Steampunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237506</guid>
		<description>Sir John Glubb (aka Glubb Pasha) in &lt;i&gt;Fate of Empire&lt;/i&gt; argued that empires have a natural life cycle, as people go from tough tribesmen, to conquerors, to empire builders, to merchants, to wealthy heirs, to losing the empire. The UK has gone through that; the US is about the same as Britain was 100 years ago.
 That said, the Victorians were were impressive for their confidence and initiative. One feat that really impressed me was two young men in their early 20s who, in the 1890s, started off in South Africa and walked north, through eastern Africa, to Egypt. This was in an era when doing so was likely to get you killed by the locals, or animals, or disease--one of their porters apparently died from blood loss from a swarm of mosquitoes! One of these kids did it to impress his fiancee&#039;s father, as I recall, and the other one went because it sounded like an adventure and he figured to go along with his buddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sir John Glubb (aka Glubb Pasha) in <i>Fate of Empire</i> argued that empires have a natural life cycle, as people go from tough tribesmen, to conquerors, to empire builders, to merchants, to wealthy heirs, to losing the empire. The UK has gone through that; the US is about the same as Britain was 100 years ago.<br />
 That said, the Victorians were were impressive for their confidence and initiative. One feat that really impressed me was two young men in their early 20s who, in the 1890s, started off in South Africa and walked north, through eastern Africa, to Egypt. This was in an era when doing so was likely to get you killed by the locals, or animals, or disease&#8211;one of their porters apparently died from blood loss from a swarm of mosquitoes! One of these kids did it to impress his fiancee&#8217;s father, as I recall, and the other one went because it sounded like an adventure and he figured to go along with his buddy.</p>
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		<title>By: TomJW</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237503</link>
		<dc:creator>TomJW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237503</guid>
		<description>Yeah, pyramids.  So hard to build.  It&#039;s not like stacking blocks you know.
You should have gone with the sphinx.  That looks more impressive.  The techniques to build it would need to be more advanced then merely building huge ramps and hauling blocks to the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, pyramids.  So hard to build.  It&#8217;s not like stacking blocks you know.<br />
You should have gone with the sphinx.  That looks more impressive.  The techniques to build it would need to be more advanced then merely building huge ramps and hauling blocks to the top.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237490</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237490</guid>
		<description>&quot;I suspect people are seldom aware that they live in the midst of a golden age&quot;

The poet Randall Jarrell said, &quot;People in a golden age complain how yellow everything looks.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I suspect people are seldom aware that they live in the midst of a golden age&#8221;</p>
<p>The poet Randall Jarrell said, &#8220;People in a golden age complain how yellow everything looks.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: The Snob</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237374</link>
		<dc:creator>The Snob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237374</guid>
		<description>&quot;How many laborers died building that bridge in the photo?&quot;

According to one of the links, none!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;How many laborers died building that bridge in the photo?&#8221;</p>
<p>According to one of the links, none!</p>
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		<title>By: Vince P</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237371</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237371</guid>
		<description>&gt;Such a thing could never be built today. The environmental impact statement would doom the project before the first spadeful of dirt could be turned.

I can&#039;t shake from my head the notion that there comes a time in the lifecycle of a nation where some group of people have to step up and enforce some sort of loyalty/cultural-change regime onto the political system. Something like a non-religious Council of Guardians that Iran has.

Or do we just let the culture decay into an unsalvagable wreck?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;Such a thing could never be built today. The environmental impact statement would doom the project before the first spadeful of dirt could be turned.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t shake from my head the notion that there comes a time in the lifecycle of a nation where some group of people have to step up and enforce some sort of loyalty/cultural-change regime onto the political system. Something like a non-religious Council of Guardians that Iran has.</p>
<p>Or do we just let the culture decay into an unsalvagable wreck?</p>
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		<title>By: Don Meaker</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237362</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Meaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 04:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237362</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Victorians could have build a Pyramid...&quot;

Not in 2000 BC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Victorians could have build a Pyramid&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Not in 2000 BC.</p>
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		<title>By: John Skookum</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237361</link>
		<dc:creator>John Skookum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237361</guid>
		<description>Comparably great achievements are within our power too, but first we would have to take ten thousand politicians and a million lawyers out behind the woodshed and shoot them all dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparably great achievements are within our power too, but first we would have to take ten thousand politicians and a million lawyers out behind the woodshed and shoot them all dead.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginny</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237358</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237358</guid>
		<description>Celebrim&#039;s comment is one of the best arguments for the Landmark books we read in our youths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Celebrim&#8217;s comment is one of the best arguments for the Landmark books we read in our youths.</p>
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		<title>By: celebrim</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237353</link>
		<dc:creator>celebrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237353</guid>
		<description>If you want to look for what is fundamentally wrong with this country, you really need to look outside our native criminal class in Washington and outside the simplistic statistics that get spun one way or the other.  

There was a time in this country when &#039;steely eyed engineers with thewes of steel&#039; were celebrated as heroes.  

Whose names do our children know?  Soldiers?  Doctors?  Scientists?  Engineers?  Inventors?  Can we ourselves even name the great men and women of our age?  Yet we all, even those who seldom watch TV or go to the movies, could probably rattle the names of 200 or so actors off the tops of our heads.  Ditto atheletes.  Something has gotten out of proportion.

If you want to trace back why things are falling apart, you need to look beyond the bandaids and vagaries of politics and look at the changes in our core cultural values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to look for what is fundamentally wrong with this country, you really need to look outside our native criminal class in Washington and outside the simplistic statistics that get spun one way or the other.  </p>
<p>There was a time in this country when &#8216;steely eyed engineers with thewes of steel&#8217; were celebrated as heroes.  </p>
<p>Whose names do our children know?  Soldiers?  Doctors?  Scientists?  Engineers?  Inventors?  Can we ourselves even name the great men and women of our age?  Yet we all, even those who seldom watch TV or go to the movies, could probably rattle the names of 200 or so actors off the tops of our heads.  Ditto atheletes.  Something has gotten out of proportion.</p>
<p>If you want to trace back why things are falling apart, you need to look beyond the bandaids and vagaries of politics and look at the changes in our core cultural values.</p>
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		<title>By: TMLutas</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237348</link>
		<dc:creator>TMLutas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237348</guid>
		<description>Ok, taking up the gauntlet of visible 20th century wow:

Communications satellites
Refrigeration
Transcontinental flight
Reverse osmosis filtering (the whole &#039;greening the desert&#039; thing)
Really long bridges
carbon nanotubes

I also disagree that skyscrapers were done with less than cutting edge technology. There often were technological innovations that let us get just a little higher. That&#039;s why having the tallest building still gives national bragging rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, taking up the gauntlet of visible 20th century wow:</p>
<p>Communications satellites<br />
Refrigeration<br />
Transcontinental flight<br />
Reverse osmosis filtering (the whole &#8216;greening the desert&#8217; thing)<br />
Really long bridges<br />
carbon nanotubes</p>
<p>I also disagree that skyscrapers were done with less than cutting edge technology. There often were technological innovations that let us get just a little higher. That&#8217;s why having the tallest building still gives national bragging rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Lou Minatti</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237342</link>
		<dc:creator>Lou Minatti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237342</guid>
		<description>Such a thing could never be built today. The environmental impact statement would doom the project before the first spadeful of dirt could be turned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Such a thing could never be built today. The environmental impact statement would doom the project before the first spadeful of dirt could be turned.</p>
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		<title>By: LS</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html/comment-page-1#comment-237336</link>
		<dc:creator>LS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5189.html#comment-237336</guid>
		<description>The Victorians certainly had more technology at their service than the ancients, but they still relied on a lot of workers with strong backs and simple tools. One thing that seems to be easily forgotten today is the tremendous human toll that was paid for those projects. A century ago, human life was simply much cheaper than we would even dare to think. How many laborers died building that bridge in the photo? Could the Panama Canal be built today, with the same casualties due to accident and disease that marked the original project? The sandhogs that excavated the foundations of the Brooklyn Bridge towers all suffered terribly from the bends. Many ended up permanently crippled. (Nobody knew what caused it at the time.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Victorians certainly had more technology at their service than the ancients, but they still relied on a lot of workers with strong backs and simple tools. One thing that seems to be easily forgotten today is the tremendous human toll that was paid for those projects. A century ago, human life was simply much cheaper than we would even dare to think. How many laborers died building that bridge in the photo? Could the Panama Canal be built today, with the same casualties due to accident and disease that marked the original project? The sandhogs that excavated the foundations of the Brooklyn Bridge towers all suffered terribly from the bends. Many ended up permanently crippled. (Nobody knew what caused it at the time.)</p>
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