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	<title>Comments on: Reading the 2nd Amendment</title>
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	<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html</link>
	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: James C. Bennett</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-139413</link>
		<dc:creator>James C. Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-139413</guid>
		<description>If you want a good illustration of the principle of the &quot;general militia&quot; in action as the Founders understood it look at the passengers of Flight 93.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want a good illustration of the principle of the &#8220;general militia&#8221; in action as the Founders understood it look at the passengers of Flight 93.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Fowler</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-139019</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Fowler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-139019</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d go further and say that even today &quot;the rights of the people&quot; generally does not mean a &quot;collective right&quot;, going to a government entity.  Even in normal modern language &quot;the right of the people&quot; doesn&#039;t refer to powers of states.

As for the interpretation of the rest of the amendment I agree, but don&#039;t think its necessary as the only clause in the amendment that gives any power, right, or obligation is &quot;the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed&quot;.  The rest of the amendment, provides justification for, but doesn&#039;t change the meaning of that phrase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d go further and say that even today &#8220;the rights of the people&#8221; generally does not mean a &#8220;collective right&#8221;, going to a government entity.  Even in normal modern language &#8220;the right of the people&#8221; doesn&#8217;t refer to powers of states.</p>
<p>As for the interpretation of the rest of the amendment I agree, but don&#8217;t think its necessary as the only clause in the amendment that gives any power, right, or obligation is &#8220;the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed&#8221;.  The rest of the amendment, provides justification for, but doesn&#8217;t change the meaning of that phrase.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyouth</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-138010</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyouth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-138010</guid>
		<description>&quot;A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.&quot;

I imagine the strongest argument by those opposed to the 2nd Amendment would be a &quot;practical&quot; one.  That is, that &quot;Militia&quot; is equivalent to the state&#039;s well-armed national guard and therefore individual citizens need not be armed.  Certainly the national guard is a militia but it, in certain common social/historical circumstances, need not be the only militia required.  Therefore, the practical argument doesn&#039;t seem very strong.  

Assuming for a moment that judicial activist outlook (that is, that militia = national guard) is adopted and a narrowing of the second amendment is rationalized then the SC is saying that the amendment is poorly written, or impractical, or unreasonable.  This would, in general, be an argument that would be similar to arguments that lead to the repeal of the 18th amendment - practical arguments.  Clearly it is not the place of the SC to, in effect, &quot;repeal&quot; it, narrow the meaning, or rewrite the amendment.  I have little doubt though that some justices will take this tact.

It&#039;s hard to see how this would be anything other than judicial activism.  The one-sentence amendment is obviously purposefully broadly written allowing maximum freedom of interpretation and scope of action by the people.  The founders clearly were not interested in putting fetters on gun owners. Now, it may be that the amendment is too broadly written for a safe, secure modern society.  If so, then let the states and/or congress repeal it like the 18th was repealed (ahem, legally).  It was broadly written on purpose and for the SC to interpret it narrowly would be a travesty.  Article 5 must be invoked to change the second amendment or we are screwed (or, one might say, no longer living in a just, orderly, open, and representative republic).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.&#8221;</p>
<p>I imagine the strongest argument by those opposed to the 2nd Amendment would be a &#8220;practical&#8221; one.  That is, that &#8220;Militia&#8221; is equivalent to the state&#8217;s well-armed national guard and therefore individual citizens need not be armed.  Certainly the national guard is a militia but it, in certain common social/historical circumstances, need not be the only militia required.  Therefore, the practical argument doesn&#8217;t seem very strong.  </p>
<p>Assuming for a moment that judicial activist outlook (that is, that militia = national guard) is adopted and a narrowing of the second amendment is rationalized then the SC is saying that the amendment is poorly written, or impractical, or unreasonable.  This would, in general, be an argument that would be similar to arguments that lead to the repeal of the 18th amendment &#8211; practical arguments.  Clearly it is not the place of the SC to, in effect, &#8220;repeal&#8221; it, narrow the meaning, or rewrite the amendment.  I have little doubt though that some justices will take this tact.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to see how this would be anything other than judicial activism.  The one-sentence amendment is obviously purposefully broadly written allowing maximum freedom of interpretation and scope of action by the people.  The founders clearly were not interested in putting fetters on gun owners. Now, it may be that the amendment is too broadly written for a safe, secure modern society.  If so, then let the states and/or congress repeal it like the 18th was repealed (ahem, legally).  It was broadly written on purpose and for the SC to interpret it narrowly would be a travesty.  Article 5 must be invoked to change the second amendment or we are screwed (or, one might say, no longer living in a just, orderly, open, and representative republic).</p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137238</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137238</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;Yes, my grandfathers were born in 1895 and 1896 — well after the Civil War ended. But I was struck, as a kid, by the way that it was still the central historical presence in their minds, and always remained that way even after WW1, the Depression, and WW2&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

Strom Thurmond won his first election - for county school superintendent, in 1923, I believe - on the strength of the Confederate Veteran vote. There are still a few - very few - living &quot;Sons of the Confederacy&quot;, old men whose fathers had been elderly war veterans who married young brides in the early 20th century and sired children. The last person born a Slave in the United States did not die until the late 1960&#039;s. 

Historical memory is longer than we think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;Yes, my grandfathers were born in 1895 and 1896 — well after the Civil War ended. But I was struck, as a kid, by the way that it was still the central historical presence in their minds, and always remained that way even after WW1, the Depression, and WW2&#8243;</b></p>
<p>Strom Thurmond won his first election &#8211; for county school superintendent, in 1923, I believe &#8211; on the strength of the Confederate Veteran vote. There are still a few &#8211; very few &#8211; living &#8220;Sons of the Confederacy&#8221;, old men whose fathers had been elderly war veterans who married young brides in the early 20th century and sired children. The last person born a Slave in the United States did not die until the late 1960&#8242;s. </p>
<p>Historical memory is longer than we think.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137230</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137230</guid>
		<description>James C. Bennett,

Yes, despite all the conflict that occurred between the Glorious Revolution and 1792, in terms of its impact on political theory and history the Glorious Revolution would have stood head and shoulders above all other events in the same time period. 

Though shifted a generation later, I too still heard references to the Civil War from the old. &quot;As bad as Shiloh&quot; was one that stuck out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James C. Bennett,</p>
<p>Yes, despite all the conflict that occurred between the Glorious Revolution and 1792, in terms of its impact on political theory and history the Glorious Revolution would have stood head and shoulders above all other events in the same time period. </p>
<p>Though shifted a generation later, I too still heard references to the Civil War from the old. &#8220;As bad as Shiloh&#8221; was one that stuck out.</p>
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		<title>By: James C. Bennett</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137193</link>
		<dc:creator>James C. Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 02:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137193</guid>
		<description>Yes, my grandfathers were born in 1895 and 1896 -- well after the Civil War ended.  But I was struck, as a kid, by the way that it was still the central historical presence in their minds, and always remained that way even after WW1, the Depression, and WW2.   

To my father&#039;s parents, Douglas MacArthur was always primarily Arthur MacArthur&#039;s boy, even after Bataan and Korea.  They used metaphors like &quot;Rock of Chicamauga&quot; in everyday speech.  

It&#039;s easy to imagine that for the Founders, the Glorious Revolution was a constant presence in their minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, my grandfathers were born in 1895 and 1896 &#8212; well after the Civil War ended.  But I was struck, as a kid, by the way that it was still the central historical presence in their minds, and always remained that way even after WW1, the Depression, and WW2.   </p>
<p>To my father&#8217;s parents, Douglas MacArthur was always primarily Arthur MacArthur&#8217;s boy, even after Bataan and Korea.  They used metaphors like &#8220;Rock of Chicamauga&#8221; in everyday speech.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to imagine that for the Founders, the Glorious Revolution was a constant presence in their minds.</p>
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		<title>By: Angie Schultz</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137092</link>
		<dc:creator>Angie Schultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137092</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;In the 17th Century, a person might write honestly to a friend, “I deeply resent the wonderful box of chocolates you sent me.”&lt;/i&gt;

Unlikely, since chocolate suitable for eating was not invented until &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cadbury.co.uk/EN/CTB2003/about_chocolate/history_chocolate/eating_chocolate.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the 19th century.&lt;/a&gt;  Before that, chocolate was only for drinking.

Just to nitpick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In the 17th Century, a person might write honestly to a friend, “I deeply resent the wonderful box of chocolates you sent me.”</i></p>
<p>Unlikely, since chocolate suitable for eating was not invented until <a href="http://www.cadbury.co.uk/EN/CTB2003/about_chocolate/history_chocolate/eating_chocolate.htm" rel="nofollow">the 19th century.</a>  Before that, chocolate was only for drinking.</p>
<p>Just to nitpick.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137068</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137068</guid>
		<description>James C. Bennett,

Good point. We forget how hard it is to put ourselves in the shoes of those who lived in other times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James C. Bennett,</p>
<p>Good point. We forget how hard it is to put ourselves in the shoes of those who lived in other times.</p>
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		<title>By: James C. Bennett</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137065</link>
		<dc:creator>James C. Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137065</guid>
		<description>We should also remember that the Founders were referencing relatively recent historical experiences -- ones that had overshadowed political discourse throughout their lives.  If any American state were t attempt secession tday, we would view that event through the lens of the American Civil War even though that event was almost 160 years ago.  So the founders viewed these issues through the lens of the Glorious Revolution, which was only a century previous -- they had known witnesses to those events in heir childhoods.  And the English Civil War was no more distant to them than the American one is to us today.  To them, the threat to the &quot;security of a free state&quot; was exemplified by the Stuarts trying to disarm citizens&#039; militias in the years before 1688, or the professional New Model Army marching into Parliament to dismiss the members they disliked by force of arms.  The Second Amendment is a real reaction to real-world events -- and it specifically endorses the fundamental concept of an armed citizenry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should also remember that the Founders were referencing relatively recent historical experiences &#8212; ones that had overshadowed political discourse throughout their lives.  If any American state were t attempt secession tday, we would view that event through the lens of the American Civil War even though that event was almost 160 years ago.  So the founders viewed these issues through the lens of the Glorious Revolution, which was only a century previous &#8212; they had known witnesses to those events in heir childhoods.  And the English Civil War was no more distant to them than the American one is to us today.  To them, the threat to the &#8220;security of a free state&#8221; was exemplified by the Stuarts trying to disarm citizens&#8217; militias in the years before 1688, or the professional New Model Army marching into Parliament to dismiss the members they disliked by force of arms.  The Second Amendment is a real reaction to real-world events &#8212; and it specifically endorses the fundamental concept of an armed citizenry.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan from Madison</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html/comment-page-1#comment-137047</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan from Madison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/5362.html#comment-137047</guid>
		<description>Next spring will prove very interesting indeed when the SCOTUS decides on DC vs. Heller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Next spring will prove very interesting indeed when the SCOTUS decides on DC vs. Heller.</p>
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