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	<title>Comments on: Marriage and Models</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268793</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Can&#039;t see how a Bronte person can possibly like &quot;Mansfield Park&quot;. And talk about dysfunctional families - none to beat the Brontes. Definitely OT. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t see how a Bronte person can possibly like &#8220;Mansfield Park&#8221;. And talk about dysfunctional families &#8211; none to beat the Brontes. Definitely OT. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: MD</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268782</link>
		<dc:creator>MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268782</guid>
		<description>Ahh, &#039;wet Fanny Price&#039;! Not to get into a Mansfield Park discussion, which is OT, but, I sooo like Mansfield Park, although, the end sort of just, er, ends. Again, I think this has to do with my being more of a Bronte than Austen person. 

*Very sweet comment Fred Lapides!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, &#8216;wet Fanny Price&#8217;! Not to get into a Mansfield Park discussion, which is OT, but, I sooo like Mansfield Park, although, the end sort of just, er, ends. Again, I think this has to do with my being more of a Bronte than Austen person. </p>
<p>*Very sweet comment Fred Lapides!</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268755</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ginny,

I&#039;d forgotten Mr and Mrs Gardiner in &quot;Pride and Prejudice&quot;. He is, indeed, in the City though not specified as what. He is clearly successful and the Gardiners are among the few  in Austen&#039;s novels who have a truly happy marriage and family. There are children, I recall. I wonder if that is the first example in English literature of an admirable businessman. There aren&#039;t many. Hmm, I think this is going OT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ginny,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d forgotten Mr and Mrs Gardiner in &#8220;Pride and Prejudice&#8221;. He is, indeed, in the City though not specified as what. He is clearly successful and the Gardiners are among the few  in Austen&#8217;s novels who have a truly happy marriage and family. There are children, I recall. I wonder if that is the first example in English literature of an admirable businessman. There aren&#8217;t many. Hmm, I think this is going OT.</p>
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		<title>By: fred lapides</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268683</link>
		<dc:creator>fred lapides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268683</guid>
		<description>Prior to getting married, I told my wife to be that I wanted her to get into a training program, advance, and be self-sufficient: no woman ought to have to depend upon the good graces of her husband. She is very successful today and I continue to be proud of what she has achieved. We have been married now for 25 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prior to getting married, I told my wife to be that I wanted her to get into a training program, advance, and be self-sufficient: no woman ought to have to depend upon the good graces of her husband. She is very successful today and I continue to be proud of what she has achieved. We have been married now for 25 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Manifold</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268673</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Manifold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268673</guid>
		<description>Two more Heinlein/“Lazarus Long” quotes seem apposite:

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. 

Another ingredient for a happy marriage: Budget the luxuries first!

(&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/lazlong.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two more Heinlein/“Lazarus Long” quotes seem apposite:</p>
<p>Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. </p>
<p>Another ingredient for a happy marriage: Budget the luxuries first!</p>
<p>(<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/lazlong.html" rel="nofollow">source</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268672</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268672</guid>
		<description>My husband and I were just talking last night about whether women&#039;s entry into the workforce had been a societal good, on balance. (Before I go on, I want to point out that he was an at-home dad by choice when our first was a baby, and that he&#039;s encouraging me right now to undertake a Five-or maybe Eight-Year Plan to position myself to take his place as family breadwinner. We have three young children; I work, but part-time and on a school schedule; my job pays diddly but keeps my brain fully engaged.)

His position was basically just that he&#039;d love to have time to research the question. My position - because I&#039;ll jump to such things - was that I think we&#039;re in the earliest stages of the end of a major transition. (Got that?) Adding a second person in some families to the workforce gave those families more money to spend, initially. As more families followed suit, the addition of that second full-time worker became an inflationary pressure, ISTM (and to him). There was a lot of talk in the &#039;80s and &#039;90s about how a family just couldn&#039;t survive on one income, and somewhat less talk about what constituted &quot;survival.&quot; 

Back in the late &#039;90s, my husband and I each made just over $40,000 a year. We lived near downtown Seattle and had a mortgage and some student loans but no other debt. We&#039;d undertaken an effort to fund our 401(k)s as fully as possible over about three years, so that if it became difficult or impossible for us to keep funding them at some point, we&#039;d have the biggest possible nest egg as early as possible. When I found I was pregnant with our first, we started setting aside one of our four two-week paychecks a month, plus both &quot;extra&quot; paychecks that result from being on a two-week pay schedule each year, toward enabling one of us to stay home for at least a year after our child was born: we stopped buying anything we didn&#039;t actually need and economized wherever we could. We succeeded in our goal, and listened to friends in our same educational and economic bracket tell us for years afterward how &quot;lucky&quot; we were to have had the chance to stay home with our baby.

So - the transition: I think maybe the pendulum is swinging back to a realization that family life is &lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt; easier if only one partner works full-time while children are in the mix, but it&#039;s no longer taken for granted that the husband is that one partner. All my evidence is anecdotal. But I hope I&#039;m right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband and I were just talking last night about whether women&#8217;s entry into the workforce had been a societal good, on balance. (Before I go on, I want to point out that he was an at-home dad by choice when our first was a baby, and that he&#8217;s encouraging me right now to undertake a Five-or maybe Eight-Year Plan to position myself to take his place as family breadwinner. We have three young children; I work, but part-time and on a school schedule; my job pays diddly but keeps my brain fully engaged.)</p>
<p>His position was basically just that he&#8217;d love to have time to research the question. My position &#8211; because I&#8217;ll jump to such things &#8211; was that I think we&#8217;re in the earliest stages of the end of a major transition. (Got that?) Adding a second person in some families to the workforce gave those families more money to spend, initially. As more families followed suit, the addition of that second full-time worker became an inflationary pressure, ISTM (and to him). There was a lot of talk in the &#8217;80s and &#8217;90s about how a family just couldn&#8217;t survive on one income, and somewhat less talk about what constituted &#8220;survival.&#8221; </p>
<p>Back in the late &#8217;90s, my husband and I each made just over $40,000 a year. We lived near downtown Seattle and had a mortgage and some student loans but no other debt. We&#8217;d undertaken an effort to fund our 401(k)s as fully as possible over about three years, so that if it became difficult or impossible for us to keep funding them at some point, we&#8217;d have the biggest possible nest egg as early as possible. When I found I was pregnant with our first, we started setting aside one of our four two-week paychecks a month, plus both &#8220;extra&#8221; paychecks that result from being on a two-week pay schedule each year, toward enabling one of us to stay home for at least a year after our child was born: we stopped buying anything we didn&#8217;t actually need and economized wherever we could. We succeeded in our goal, and listened to friends in our same educational and economic bracket tell us for years afterward how &#8220;lucky&#8221; we were to have had the chance to stay home with our baby.</p>
<p>So &#8211; the transition: I think maybe the pendulum is swinging back to a realization that family life is <i>much</i> easier if only one partner works full-time while children are in the mix, but it&#8217;s no longer taken for granted that the husband is that one partner. All my evidence is anecdotal. But I hope I&#8217;m right!</p>
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		<title>By: Ginny</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268645</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268645</guid>
		<description>Helen&#039;s went up while I was posting.  

Thanks for your observation.  Wentworth isn&#039;t rich, but he did become successful because of the virtues the heroine had seen in him - and her family, looking only at money, had not (as I remember, it&#039;s been a while).  The aunt and uncle, making their money in trade, modelled a good marriage when the Bennett girls were exposed to few others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen&#8217;s went up while I was posting.  </p>
<p>Thanks for your observation.  Wentworth isn&#8217;t rich, but he did become successful because of the virtues the heroine had seen in him &#8211; and her family, looking only at money, had not (as I remember, it&#8217;s been a while).  The aunt and uncle, making their money in trade, modelled a good marriage when the Bennett girls were exposed to few others.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginny</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268642</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268642</guid>
		<description>Money is important - not because of quantity but as indicator.  Dilys finds in her husband a good provider and notes that it isn&#039;t the money as much as the character that has taken on the responsibility of providing for a family.  This seems wise because such priorities are important.  They reflect maturity.

I can&#039;t remember where I read a blog that examined  the Palin&#039;s quite transparent financial statements; a financial planner was impressed that Todd Palin put money into long-term savings at an early age and both seemed to have a handle on planning in terms of their future and their children.  Such planning prepares for the most important choice - a child.

Franklin&#039;s advice on that kind of thing was useful, not because he believed in thrift (though he did) but because he understood that &quot;an empty bag can&#039;t stand upright.&quot;  A spouse who requires a series of bailouts from parents, who must dodge creditors, who destroyd the family&#039;s credit so mortgages will be hard (and expensive) to get is either undisciplined or stupid.  The family is placed in situations that endanger its integrity.  On the other hand, if you have a nest egg and live under your income, you can resist pressures and even take gambles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money is important &#8211; not because of quantity but as indicator.  Dilys finds in her husband a good provider and notes that it isn&#8217;t the money as much as the character that has taken on the responsibility of providing for a family.  This seems wise because such priorities are important.  They reflect maturity.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t remember where I read a blog that examined  the Palin&#8217;s quite transparent financial statements; a financial planner was impressed that Todd Palin put money into long-term savings at an early age and both seemed to have a handle on planning in terms of their future and their children.  Such planning prepares for the most important choice &#8211; a child.</p>
<p>Franklin&#8217;s advice on that kind of thing was useful, not because he believed in thrift (though he did) but because he understood that &#8220;an empty bag can&#8217;t stand upright.&#8221;  A spouse who requires a series of bailouts from parents, who must dodge creditors, who destroyd the family&#8217;s credit so mortgages will be hard (and expensive) to get is either undisciplined or stupid.  The family is placed in situations that endanger its integrity.  On the other hand, if you have a nest egg and live under your income, you can resist pressures and even take gambles.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268640</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268640</guid>
		<description>Um, the recent Austen films and TV dramatizations are not very good so there seems not point in discussing them as if they reflected what Jane Austen wrote. The books are about the women and their families as well as the social set-up around them. The films are about the love stories. 

But they are not all Mr Darcy or even Mr Knightley. Captain Wentworth in &quot;Persuasion&quot; is a naval officer who becomes well off from prize money. Not terribly rich. Henry Tilney in &quot;Northanger Abbey&quot; is a vicar though his father is fairly rich so he will eventually inherit. The wet young man in &quot;Mansfield Park&quot; who marries the equally wet Fanny Price is a vicar and a younger son - will inherit but little. And so on, and so on. Riches do not really come into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, the recent Austen films and TV dramatizations are not very good so there seems not point in discussing them as if they reflected what Jane Austen wrote. The books are about the women and their families as well as the social set-up around them. The films are about the love stories. </p>
<p>But they are not all Mr Darcy or even Mr Knightley. Captain Wentworth in &#8220;Persuasion&#8221; is a naval officer who becomes well off from prize money. Not terribly rich. Henry Tilney in &#8220;Northanger Abbey&#8221; is a vicar though his father is fairly rich so he will eventually inherit. The wet young man in &#8220;Mansfield Park&#8221; who marries the equally wet Fanny Price is a vicar and a younger son &#8211; will inherit but little. And so on, and so on. Riches do not really come into it.</p>
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		<title>By: dilys</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268624</link>
		<dc:creator>dilys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268624</guid>
		<description>Anon could check out Austen&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Sense and Sensibility&lt;/i&gt;, also a delightful popular movie with Kate Winslett and Emma Thompson. The &quot;sensible&quot; older sister is ecstatic that the man she loves is cut out of his mother&#039;s estate as a nearly-poor clergyman, one with whom she can live peaceably and simply.

I for one am married to what I lovingly call &quot;an old-fashioned Good Provider.&quot; I value this not only because our family is well-provided-for. Mostly because it is so interrelated with the character aspects I cherish: unselfish, resilient, uncomplaining, takes risks and tests and applies himself over time. It is a kind of male &quot;nurturing,&quot; and I tend just naturally to puzzlement whenever men suggest either they shouldn&#039;t have to undertake such a classic character-building adventure, or that women shouldn&#039;t appreciate it. Property, inherited or earned, is a good forum for such demonstrations of virtue; but men of property who offer only property are best avoided by the wise woman.

If modern men think they run into too many gold-diggers, they should both look for women with better values (churches contra bars), and develop their own presence and impact in the world. That pincer strategy should improve matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon could check out Austen&#8217;s <i>Sense and Sensibility</i>, also a delightful popular movie with Kate Winslett and Emma Thompson. The &#8220;sensible&#8221; older sister is ecstatic that the man she loves is cut out of his mother&#8217;s estate as a nearly-poor clergyman, one with whom she can live peaceably and simply.</p>
<p>I for one am married to what I lovingly call &#8220;an old-fashioned Good Provider.&#8221; I value this not only because our family is well-provided-for. Mostly because it is so interrelated with the character aspects I cherish: unselfish, resilient, uncomplaining, takes risks and tests and applies himself over time. It is a kind of male &#8220;nurturing,&#8221; and I tend just naturally to puzzlement whenever men suggest either they shouldn&#8217;t have to undertake such a classic character-building adventure, or that women shouldn&#8217;t appreciate it. Property, inherited or earned, is a good forum for such demonstrations of virtue; but men of property who offer only property are best avoided by the wise woman.</p>
<p>If modern men think they run into too many gold-diggers, they should both look for women with better values (churches contra bars), and develop their own presence and impact in the world. That pincer strategy should improve matters.</p>
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		<title>By: MD</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268613</link>
		<dc:creator>MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268613</guid>
		<description>Yes, they would Anon, although, I tend to be more Bronte than Austen, which, actually, doesn&#039;t really change my point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they would Anon, although, I tend to be more Bronte than Austen, which, actually, doesn&#8217;t really change my point.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6226.html/comment-page-1#comment-268607</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6226#comment-268607</guid>
		<description>Suppose the male protagonists in Jane Austin&#039;s work were poor with great personalities, or even middle class with great personalities. And suppose they had no special prospects of getting very rich and owning beautiful estates.

Would these novels &amp; movies be as popular as they are with a female readership? Really?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose the male protagonists in Jane Austin&#8217;s work were poor with great personalities, or even middle class with great personalities. And suppose they had no special prospects of getting very rich and owning beautiful estates.</p>
<p>Would these novels &amp; movies be as popular as they are with a female readership? Really?</p>
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