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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s Next?</title>
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	<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html</link>
	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Mitch Townsend</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274823</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch Townsend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274823</guid>
		<description>Dodged a bullet!  The S&amp;P was down 3% today, so I guess we caught a brick instead.  I&#039;m very glad to be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dodged a bullet!  The S&amp;P was down 3% today, so I guess we caught a brick instead.  I&#8217;m very glad to be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274320</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274320</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll try the long winded answer. I will refer to New York Law because I am, a not yet disbarred but semi-retired, member of the bar of the Appellate Division of the First Department of the New York Supreme Court. Besides the Wench was in Manhattan.

The starting place for this discussion is that gambling is illegal in New York (unless the bookie is the State itself), and a contract that requires one party to pay the other upon the occurrence of a contingent event is void, gambling debts are unenforceable, and bets must be returned to the bettor. (NY GOL Sec 5-401 et. seq.). 

An insurance contract is one which requires the insurer to transfer value to the the insured, upon the occurrence of an event that is beyond the control of either party and which adversely affects an economic interest (&quot;insurable interest&quot;) of the insured. (NY Ins L Sec. 1101 &amp; 3401).

What then distinguishes a void wager from a valid insurance contract? The insurable interest of the insured. If the insured does not have the insurable interest the contract is void and may be unwound at the request of the insurer.

It is illegal to sell insurance without a license, but I do not know if there has ever been a case where illegality was presented as a defense by the insurer. Certainly commercial interest alone would push real insurers away from that claim.

What about option contracts. One answer is that an option is a simple contract of purchase and sale, where the closing and payment are deferred at the option of one of the parties. There is no event that is beyond the control of either party in an option contract. So there is neither an insurance contract, nor a wager. 

We can see that economically an option can act as insurance, and, if neither party owns the property subject to the option, it may act as a wager. There has been a great deal of attention to this issue in the chartering of the commodities business and in the swap market.

CDS, depending on the details, might fit into the option paradigm. I think the most important fact would be whether it requires the claimant to tender the defaulted security. 

Whatever CDS is, I think the model needs to be rebuilt, if it going to survive. I would go for the exchange traded option route, with the ability to use custom insurance policies by regulated insurers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try the long winded answer. I will refer to New York Law because I am, a not yet disbarred but semi-retired, member of the bar of the Appellate Division of the First Department of the New York Supreme Court. Besides the Wench was in Manhattan.</p>
<p>The starting place for this discussion is that gambling is illegal in New York (unless the bookie is the State itself), and a contract that requires one party to pay the other upon the occurrence of a contingent event is void, gambling debts are unenforceable, and bets must be returned to the bettor. (NY GOL Sec 5-401 et. seq.). </p>
<p>An insurance contract is one which requires the insurer to transfer value to the the insured, upon the occurrence of an event that is beyond the control of either party and which adversely affects an economic interest (&#8220;insurable interest&#8221;) of the insured. (NY Ins L Sec. 1101 &amp; 3401).</p>
<p>What then distinguishes a void wager from a valid insurance contract? The insurable interest of the insured. If the insured does not have the insurable interest the contract is void and may be unwound at the request of the insurer.</p>
<p>It is illegal to sell insurance without a license, but I do not know if there has ever been a case where illegality was presented as a defense by the insurer. Certainly commercial interest alone would push real insurers away from that claim.</p>
<p>What about option contracts. One answer is that an option is a simple contract of purchase and sale, where the closing and payment are deferred at the option of one of the parties. There is no event that is beyond the control of either party in an option contract. So there is neither an insurance contract, nor a wager. </p>
<p>We can see that economically an option can act as insurance, and, if neither party owns the property subject to the option, it may act as a wager. There has been a great deal of attention to this issue in the chartering of the commodities business and in the swap market.</p>
<p>CDS, depending on the details, might fit into the option paradigm. I think the most important fact would be whether it requires the claimant to tender the defaulted security. </p>
<p>Whatever CDS is, I think the model needs to be rebuilt, if it going to survive. I would go for the exchange traded option route, with the ability to use custom insurance policies by regulated insurers.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch Townsend</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274305</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch Townsend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274305</guid>
		<description>Hi Rick

The OCC numbers are only for banks under OCC supervision.  Among banks, that leaves out the ones subject to OTS and the dwindling number of state-only institutions.  More importantly, it leaves out investment banks, hedge funds, mutual funds, foreign banks, and single managed accounts like pension funds and endowments.

I was using industry numbers, but they are likely to be out of date.  There is an emergency effort behind the scenes to get things closed or offset, and they may have succeeded to some degree.  For example, the night before Lehman filed for bankruptcy, their holders met and tried to trade, offset, or somehow deal with the issue and at least reduce the uncertainty, if not the loss.  That effort has continued and probably will for quite some time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rick</p>
<p>The OCC numbers are only for banks under OCC supervision.  Among banks, that leaves out the ones subject to OTS and the dwindling number of state-only institutions.  More importantly, it leaves out investment banks, hedge funds, mutual funds, foreign banks, and single managed accounts like pension funds and endowments.</p>
<p>I was using industry numbers, but they are likely to be out of date.  There is an emergency effort behind the scenes to get things closed or offset, and they may have succeeded to some degree.  For example, the night before Lehman filed for bankruptcy, their holders met and tried to trade, offset, or somehow deal with the issue and at least reduce the uncertainty, if not the loss.  That effort has continued and probably will for quite some time.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Ballard</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274268</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Ballard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274268</guid>
		<description>Mitch,

My compliments on a nice piece. I&#039;ve looked for an 8-K from AIG after the auction and haven&#039;t found one disclosing severe losses. If the losses were very large they would have had to have been disclosed per SEC regulation. Are you using &#039;trade&#039; journal references for the $300-$400 billion number? I ask because this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.occ.treas.gov/ftp/release/2008-115a.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;OCC report&lt;/a&gt; (pages 21 and 26) indicates somewhat less. It certainly doesn&#039;t cover what are called synthetic CDS and that&#039;s where the truly fantastic notional numbers seem to be coming from.

I would also note that &#039;insurance&#039; used as you are doing could also be applied to put options. I tend to think of CDS as out of the money puts. I&#039;m not sure where they belong within the regulatory apparatus but I sure wish the Feds would give them a home - and make the unregistered synthetics unenforceable. Right now it appears that many of these &#039;insurance&#039; policies have been sold to arsonists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch,</p>
<p>My compliments on a nice piece. I&#8217;ve looked for an 8-K from AIG after the auction and haven&#8217;t found one disclosing severe losses. If the losses were very large they would have had to have been disclosed per SEC regulation. Are you using &#8216;trade&#8217; journal references for the $300-$400 billion number? I ask because this <a href="http://www.occ.treas.gov/ftp/release/2008-115a.pdf" rel="nofollow">OCC report</a> (pages 21 and 26) indicates somewhat less. It certainly doesn&#8217;t cover what are called synthetic CDS and that&#8217;s where the truly fantastic notional numbers seem to be coming from.</p>
<p>I would also note that &#8216;insurance&#8217; used as you are doing could also be applied to put options. I tend to think of CDS as out of the money puts. I&#8217;m not sure where they belong within the regulatory apparatus but I sure wish the Feds would give them a home &#8211; and make the unregistered synthetics unenforceable. Right now it appears that many of these &#8216;insurance&#8217; policies have been sold to arsonists.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch Townsend</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274242</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch Townsend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 04:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274242</guid>
		<description>Robert, you are absolutely right about the insurance aspect of these contracts.  Dealers in CDSs go to great lengths to call them anything but insurance, since insurance is something regulated by the states.  But if one of the parties decided to abrogate the contract, saying they were shocked, SHOCKED! to find that insurance had been committed, the courts would probably have a good laugh at their expense (assuming they did not refer the lawyers to the state bar for disciplinary procedures).  Both parties knew what they were getting into, including any touchy regulatory issues, and the courts would likely uphold the contract.  IANAL, but a contract has to be in pretty serious violation of law before a court would void it on those grounds.  Knowingly entering into a contract that you believe you legally cannot does not give you an automatic mulligan, assuming the other party performs his part.  In particular, if the seller of the &quot;insurance&quot; contract were to say &quot;Oops, we weren&#039;t legally able to sell you that contract, so we&#039;re not going to pay you,&quot; the courts would be very much amused but not very convinced.  The buyer might get a little more sympathy, but not much better results.  The violations of insurance law might mean that other penalties would be considered, but would not necessarily void the contract.

Anyway, watch what happens on Tuesday.  If nothing happens, then I&#039;m an uninformed alarmist but a happy one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, you are absolutely right about the insurance aspect of these contracts.  Dealers in CDSs go to great lengths to call them anything but insurance, since insurance is something regulated by the states.  But if one of the parties decided to abrogate the contract, saying they were shocked, SHOCKED! to find that insurance had been committed, the courts would probably have a good laugh at their expense (assuming they did not refer the lawyers to the state bar for disciplinary procedures).  Both parties knew what they were getting into, including any touchy regulatory issues, and the courts would likely uphold the contract.  IANAL, but a contract has to be in pretty serious violation of law before a court would void it on those grounds.  Knowingly entering into a contract that you believe you legally cannot does not give you an automatic mulligan, assuming the other party performs his part.  In particular, if the seller of the &#8220;insurance&#8221; contract were to say &#8220;Oops, we weren&#8217;t legally able to sell you that contract, so we&#8217;re not going to pay you,&#8221; the courts would be very much amused but not very convinced.  The buyer might get a little more sympathy, but not much better results.  The violations of insurance law might mean that other penalties would be considered, but would not necessarily void the contract.</p>
<p>Anyway, watch what happens on Tuesday.  If nothing happens, then I&#8217;m an uninformed alarmist but a happy one.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274235</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 03:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274235</guid>
		<description>Would not this consideration (of insurance contracts) apply to any OTC or exchange-traded derivative?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would not this consideration (of insurance contracts) apply to any OTC or exchange-traded derivative?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6326.html/comment-page-1#comment-274232</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6326#comment-274232</guid>
		<description>One problem here is that CDS are probably insurance contracts. To the extent that the sellers are not licensed insurers, or the buyers do not own the defaulted bonds, the CDS contracts may be void. If I were a CDS seller, I might start a law suit rather than paying off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One problem here is that CDS are probably insurance contracts. To the extent that the sellers are not licensed insurers, or the buyers do not own the defaulted bonds, the CDS contracts may be void. If I were a CDS seller, I might start a law suit rather than paying off.</p>
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