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	<title>Comments on: Clausewitz, On War, Book 1: Dialectic, but which dialectic?</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: wilderness of meres</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290855</link>
		<dc:creator>wilderness of meres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Seydlitz89 has not responded yet, but I will proceed with my Bold Conjecture: the random oscillating movement interpretation of section 28 is wrong.  CvC is referring to the pendulum &lt;b&gt;at rest, not in motion&lt;/b&gt;.  Just as the pendulum in equilibrium will freely respond as the three attractors are moved into new positions, an adequate theory will be useful for any configuration of the three tendencies in the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seydlitz89 has not responded yet, but I will proceed with my Bold Conjecture: the random oscillating movement interpretation of section 28 is wrong.  CvC is referring to the pendulum <b>at rest, not in motion</b>.  Just as the pendulum in equilibrium will freely respond as the three attractors are moved into new positions, an adequate theory will be useful for any configuration of the three tendencies in the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Rofer</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290769</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Rofer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The ethnic Germans in the Baltic States were predominantly Lutheran. I&#039;m not sure about other ethnic Germans in Russia, but would guess they were Lutheran too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ethnic Germans in the Baltic States were predominantly Lutheran. I&#8217;m not sure about other ethnic Germans in Russia, but would guess they were Lutheran too.</p>
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		<title>By: wilderness of meres</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290773</link>
		<dc:creator>wilderness of meres</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>seydlitz89: 

I have two questions regarding this sentence from section 28, &quot;Die Aufgabe ist also, daß sich die Theorie zwischen diesen drei Tendenzen wie zwischen drei Anziehungspunkten schwebend erhalte.&quot; and the video clip from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Trinity/TrinityTeachingNote.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; which Lexington Green was &lt;a href=&quot;http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6610.html#comment-290248&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;good enough&lt;/a&gt; to bring to my attention.

1.  If an eduacated German-speaker of CvC&#039;s time had described that demonstration, would he have used &#039;erhalt&#039; to describe the movement of the pendulum?

2.  Why is it so common to think that the pendulum represents war when CvC specifically states that it represents theory?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>seydlitz89: </p>
<p>I have two questions regarding this sentence from section 28, &#8220;Die Aufgabe ist also, daß sich die Theorie zwischen diesen drei Tendenzen wie zwischen drei Anziehungspunkten schwebend erhalte.&#8221; and the video clip from <a href="http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Trinity/TrinityTeachingNote.htm" rel="nofollow">this article</a> which Lexington Green was <a href="http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6610.html#comment-290248" rel="nofollow">good enough</a> to bring to my attention.</p>
<p>1.  If an eduacated German-speaker of CvC&#8217;s time had described that demonstration, would he have used &#8216;erhalt&#8217; to describe the movement of the pendulum?</p>
<p>2.  Why is it so common to think that the pendulum represents war when CvC specifically states that it represents theory?</p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290767</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6626#comment-290767</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot; I am not entirely sure what the social and religious make up of Prussia and Russia, was at the time&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

Prussia was predominantly Lutheran and Russia was overwhelmingly Orthodox with both faiths being &quot;state&quot; churches.

Both Prussia and Russia contained religious minorities, including Jews who were not full citizens in either country in Clausewitz&#039;s day and were not permitted to engage in military service, if I recall correctly. Catholicism, from the Polish population and Western Ukranian Uniates would have been the next largest religious sect in Prussia nad Russia but Catholic officers (to the extent that there were any) would have found their prospects for promotion to be slim.

An interesting question would be the religious affiliation of Russia&#039;s ethnic Germans who were disproportionately represented in Tsarist service, civil and military.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8221; I am not entirely sure what the social and religious make up of Prussia and Russia, was at the time&#8221;</b></p>
<p>Prussia was predominantly Lutheran and Russia was overwhelmingly Orthodox with both faiths being &#8220;state&#8221; churches.</p>
<p>Both Prussia and Russia contained religious minorities, including Jews who were not full citizens in either country in Clausewitz&#8217;s day and were not permitted to engage in military service, if I recall correctly. Catholicism, from the Polish population and Western Ukranian Uniates would have been the next largest religious sect in Prussia nad Russia but Catholic officers (to the extent that there were any) would have found their prospects for promotion to be slim.</p>
<p>An interesting question would be the religious affiliation of Russia&#8217;s ethnic Germans who were disproportionately represented in Tsarist service, civil and military.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathaniel T. Lauterbach</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290762</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel T. Lauterbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6626#comment-290762</guid>
		<description>Seydlitz89-

Thanks!  I intend to continually write about Clausewitz&#039;s idea of the military genius as we read, so you can expect more from me on that.

Thanks for the tip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seydlitz89-</p>
<p>Thanks!  I intend to continually write about Clausewitz&#8217;s idea of the military genius as we read, so you can expect more from me on that.</p>
<p>Thanks for the tip.</p>
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		<title>By: seydlitz89</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290744</link>
		<dc:creator>seydlitz89</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6626#comment-290744</guid>
		<description>A couple of points I should add here.  This view is the minority view among at least US and UK Clausewitzians.  I suspect that the Germans and French (following Raymond Aron) are more open to it. Paret in his biography of Clausewitz mentions in an aside that &quot;Clausewitz&#039;s method does not insist on resolution.&quot;  At the Clausewitz Conference in 2005 I brought this question up during Hew Strachan&#039;s talk (kinda just popped out) and he politely listened, wrote down a couple of notes and has said or written nothing about it since.  Andreas Herberg Rothe on the other hand, with whom I have regular correspondence, finds Hartmann&#039;s argument strong on Schleiermacher, but weak in his understanding of Hegel&#039;s thought, but is uncommitted as to the use of the dialectic in question.

My other comment is in response to Nathaniel&#039;s post.  There is another element of Clausewitz&#039;s concept of genius which does not come up in Book 1, but does later in Books 6 &amp; 8, especially Book 8, Chapter 2.  That being the ability of the military genius to understand the changes that have occurred in politics/society and to harness those changes in exercising a new art of war, in effect something very similar to Kuhn&#039;s paradigm shift concept.  The period of confusion among those overwhelmed by the new political/military realities corresponds as well to Kuhn&#039;s period of crisis.  I also see this element of genius as being very close to Max Weber&#039;s ideal type of the charismatic leader . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of points I should add here.  This view is the minority view among at least US and UK Clausewitzians.  I suspect that the Germans and French (following Raymond Aron) are more open to it. Paret in his biography of Clausewitz mentions in an aside that &#8220;Clausewitz&#8217;s method does not insist on resolution.&#8221;  At the Clausewitz Conference in 2005 I brought this question up during Hew Strachan&#8217;s talk (kinda just popped out) and he politely listened, wrote down a couple of notes and has said or written nothing about it since.  Andreas Herberg Rothe on the other hand, with whom I have regular correspondence, finds Hartmann&#8217;s argument strong on Schleiermacher, but weak in his understanding of Hegel&#8217;s thought, but is uncommitted as to the use of the dialectic in question.</p>
<p>My other comment is in response to Nathaniel&#8217;s post.  There is another element of Clausewitz&#8217;s concept of genius which does not come up in Book 1, but does later in Books 6 &amp; 8, especially Book 8, Chapter 2.  That being the ability of the military genius to understand the changes that have occurred in politics/society and to harness those changes in exercising a new art of war, in effect something very similar to Kuhn&#8217;s paradigm shift concept.  The period of confusion among those overwhelmed by the new political/military realities corresponds as well to Kuhn&#8217;s period of crisis.  I also see this element of genius as being very close to Max Weber&#8217;s ideal type of the charismatic leader . . .</p>
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		<title>By: William F. Owen</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290736</link>
		<dc:creator>William F. Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6626#comment-290736</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you can discount Clausewitz&#039;s intended audience from this perspective. I am not entirely sure what the social and religious make up of Prussia and Russia, was at the time. CvC probably intended his work to read by those with whom he had served and was familiar. Keeping potentially complex argument simple (by the standards of the day) and not being too radical all have to be factored into the style and approach he took, especially as he intended his work as guidance and not self promotion (unlike Machiavelli).

I have always taken his comments on military genius to be indicative, and a polite way of saying &quot;some folks should not be allowed to command.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you can discount Clausewitz&#8217;s intended audience from this perspective. I am not entirely sure what the social and religious make up of Prussia and Russia, was at the time. CvC probably intended his work to read by those with whom he had served and was familiar. Keeping potentially complex argument simple (by the standards of the day) and not being too radical all have to be factored into the style and approach he took, especially as he intended his work as guidance and not self promotion (unlike Machiavelli).</p>
<p>I have always taken his comments on military genius to be indicative, and a polite way of saying &#8220;some folks should not be allowed to command.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green`</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290725</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green`</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I must say, while I did not know about Schliermacher, Clausewitz certainly does not write or think like a Hegelian.  On War does not point at all to the resolution of antitheses in a higher order synthesis.  The nature of war, including its unresolved antitheses, is primordial, contemporary, and perpetual.  We can never reduce war to reason and hence &quot;a kind of war by algebra&quot;, nor can we ever &quot;lift the fog of war&quot; by means of better and better machines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say, while I did not know about Schliermacher, Clausewitz certainly does not write or think like a Hegelian.  On War does not point at all to the resolution of antitheses in a higher order synthesis.  The nature of war, including its unresolved antitheses, is primordial, contemporary, and perpetual.  We can never reduce war to reason and hence &#8220;a kind of war by algebra&#8221;, nor can we ever &#8220;lift the fog of war&#8221; by means of better and better machines.</p>
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		<title>By: zenpundit</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290721</link>
		<dc:creator>zenpundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;It may surprise some to hear me say that the dialectic that Clausewitz uses the most in his general theory is that of the theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher . . &quot;&lt;/b&gt;

Count me among the ranks of the surprised. LOL!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;It may surprise some to hear me say that the dialectic that Clausewitz uses the most in his general theory is that of the theologian Friedrich Schleiermacher . . &#8220;</b></p>
<p>Count me among the ranks of the surprised. LOL!</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green`</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290717</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green`</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Does anybody know of any theologians (especially Lutheran ones) who might be interested in reading On War?&quot;

That is a tall order!  

I know a lot of people, but I don&#039;t know any Lutheran theologians.  I know some Catholic ones.  

Probably too late to enlist their participation ... .

&quot;The Holy Spirit = Uncertainty&quot;

More than that: The Holy Spirit = &quot;inspiration&quot;, which is the will and energy and intelligence and courage of the commander, who directs the war -- which overcomes the uncertainty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Does anybody know of any theologians (especially Lutheran ones) who might be interested in reading On War?&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a tall order!  </p>
<p>I know a lot of people, but I don&#8217;t know any Lutheran theologians.  I know some Catholic ones.  </p>
<p>Probably too late to enlist their participation &#8230; .</p>
<p>&#8220;The Holy Spirit = Uncertainty&#8221;</p>
<p>More than that: The Holy Spirit = &#8220;inspiration&#8221;, which is the will and energy and intelligence and courage of the commander, who directs the war &#8212; which overcomes the uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathaniel T. Lauterbach</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6626.html/comment-page-1#comment-290715</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathaniel T. Lauterbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6626#comment-290715</guid>
		<description>Here is an observation, and might be worth thinking about, or not.

It strikes me as interesting that the dialectic used by Clausewitz was the same dialectic used by a theologian.  Perhaps there are other similarities between Christian doctrine and warfare:

For example:  The Trinity, where
The Father = Political Subordination to Policy
The Son = Passion of the People
The Holy Spirit = Uncertainty

There are other trinities which might be worth exploring, too (Army + Government + People) just to see how they interrelate.  This might be a good exercise in lateral thinking!

Does anybody know of any theologians (especially Lutheran ones) who might be interested in reading On War?  They would be a late addition to the Round Table, but I&#039;m sure their contributions would be weighty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an observation, and might be worth thinking about, or not.</p>
<p>It strikes me as interesting that the dialectic used by Clausewitz was the same dialectic used by a theologian.  Perhaps there are other similarities between Christian doctrine and warfare:</p>
<p>For example:  The Trinity, where<br />
The Father = Political Subordination to Policy<br />
The Son = Passion of the People<br />
The Holy Spirit = Uncertainty</p>
<p>There are other trinities which might be worth exploring, too (Army + Government + People) just to see how they interrelate.  This might be a good exercise in lateral thinking!</p>
<p>Does anybody know of any theologians (especially Lutheran ones) who might be interested in reading On War?  They would be a late addition to the Round Table, but I&#8217;m sure their contributions would be weighty.</p>
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