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	<title>Comments on: Turns Out, Tyrants Aren&#8217;t College Professors</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293318</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293318</guid>
		<description>The Richard Landes blog post linked by Robert Schwartz is excellent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Richard Landes blog post linked by Robert Schwartz is excellent.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293306</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293306</guid>
		<description>I hope Lexington&#039;s scenario is accurate, but like him, I doubt it.  Nothing in Obama&#039;s past to suggest he understands he is dealing with people from a really different culture than the post-Vietnam American liberal academic one with which he is familiar.

It IS amusing to note that those who talk the most about multiculturalism show the least interest, knowledge or perception regarding true cultural differences, and just think everyone looks at the world the same way they do.

Total ignorance of history, both the grand sweep and the telling details, helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope Lexington&#8217;s scenario is accurate, but like him, I doubt it.  Nothing in Obama&#8217;s past to suggest he understands he is dealing with people from a really different culture than the post-Vietnam American liberal academic one with which he is familiar.</p>
<p>It IS amusing to note that those who talk the most about multiculturalism show the least interest, knowledge or perception regarding true cultural differences, and just think everyone looks at the world the same way they do.</p>
<p>Total ignorance of history, both the grand sweep and the telling details, helps.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293275</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293275</guid>
		<description>JamesH...&quot;You can always say: NO NO NO, no deal whatsoever. and then you have a record for the world to view and see how you made an honest effort but that the other side was stupid and unyielding&quot;...I  might believe this was the objective if the context was different..for exampe, if Obama was entering these negotiations while simultaneously supporting missile defense and the expansion of bunker-buster weapons capabilities. But he isn&#039;t.

Even Neville Chamberlain hedged his policy of appeasement by fuding a massive increase in the Royal Air Force and the creation of a radar-and-communications-based air defense system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JamesH&#8230;&#8221;You can always say: NO NO NO, no deal whatsoever. and then you have a record for the world to view and see how you made an honest effort but that the other side was stupid and unyielding&#8221;&#8230;I  might believe this was the objective if the context was different..for exampe, if Obama was entering these negotiations while simultaneously supporting missile defense and the expansion of bunker-buster weapons capabilities. But he isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Even Neville Chamberlain hedged his policy of appeasement by fuding a massive increase in the Royal Air Force and the creation of a radar-and-communications-based air defense system.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Pelette</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293271</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Pelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293271</guid>
		<description>It is a myth that Saddam Hussein was an indispensible counter to Iranian ambitions. He was nothing of the sort. His war with Iran wrecked his country, and the only way he managed to eke out a marginal &#039;victory&#039; over Iran was through massive material and financial support of outside powers coupled with the isolation of Iran from those same powers, plus the eventual military intervention of the US against Iran. 

The effective counter to Iran was and is the US. That won&#039;t change anytime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a myth that Saddam Hussein was an indispensible counter to Iranian ambitions. He was nothing of the sort. His war with Iran wrecked his country, and the only way he managed to eke out a marginal &#8216;victory&#8217; over Iran was through massive material and financial support of outside powers coupled with the isolation of Iran from those same powers, plus the eventual military intervention of the US against Iran. </p>
<p>The effective counter to Iran was and is the US. That won&#8217;t change anytime soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293266</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293266</guid>
		<description>James Hurley,

&lt;i&gt;... do not presuppose what will happen in a manner that suits what you believe might happen.&lt;/i&gt;

Did you not read the linked article? It has already happened. The Iranians have taken just Obama&#039;s willingness to open wider negotiations as a sign of weakness. At the very least, they have already scored an internal propaganda victory just by Obama opening his mouth. 

You need to turn the problem around. If &quot;talking&quot; to the Iranians is so costless then why has the Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush 42 administrations refused to do so? 

&lt;i&gt;You can always say: NO NO NO, no deal whatsoever. and then you have a record for the world to view and see how you made an honest effort but that the other side was stupid and unyielding.&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, that only works in movies. The Iranians and western leftist will spin it as our fault. More importantly, a conference serves no purpose because we already understand each other. The only reason to do so is political theater. Leftist just have a political fetish for negotiating. They think that just talking is a virtue regardless of the side effects or the likelihood of success. 

&lt;i&gt;Did you pre-judge Pres Bush in this manner at every turn?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, when I voted. That&#039;s what you do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James Hurley,</p>
<p><i>&#8230; do not presuppose what will happen in a manner that suits what you believe might happen.</i></p>
<p>Did you not read the linked article? It has already happened. The Iranians have taken just Obama&#8217;s willingness to open wider negotiations as a sign of weakness. At the very least, they have already scored an internal propaganda victory just by Obama opening his mouth. </p>
<p>You need to turn the problem around. If &#8220;talking&#8221; to the Iranians is so costless then why has the Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush 42 administrations refused to do so? </p>
<p><i>You can always say: NO NO NO, no deal whatsoever. and then you have a record for the world to view and see how you made an honest effort but that the other side was stupid and unyielding.</i></p>
<p>Yeah, that only works in movies. The Iranians and western leftist will spin it as our fault. More importantly, a conference serves no purpose because we already understand each other. The only reason to do so is political theater. Leftist just have a political fetish for negotiating. They think that just talking is a virtue regardless of the side effects or the likelihood of success. </p>
<p><i>Did you pre-judge Pres Bush in this manner at every turn?</i></p>
<p>Yes, when I voted. That&#8217;s what you do.</p>
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		<title>By: fred lapides aka james hurley</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293262</link>
		<dc:creator>fred lapides aka james hurley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293262</guid>
		<description>[deleted]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[deleted]</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293197</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 04:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293197</guid>
		<description>James Hurley,

&lt;i&gt;Obama has done nothing other than say he would be willing to speak to Iran leaders.&lt;/i&gt;

Okay, this isn&#039;t some kind of whacky sitcom mixup that can be fixed by the principle sitting down clearing up misconception. It is a strawman to say that we are not talking to Iran now. We are in constant communication with them both directly through their UN representative and through third parties and informal channels. We know what they want and they know what we want. The fact that Obama appears to believe otherwise indicates that he is either naive or duplicitous. 

The only reason to sit down with them in a formal meeting is to make concessions and they know it. They will refuse to negotiate until Obama gives them something they can brag about back home. Then they will demand even more when they show up and Obama will have to give them something or go away looking empty handed and foolish. 

I predict this will be Obama&#039;s behavior based on his foreign policy statements, the foreign policy academics he refers to as well as his foreign policy advisors. His has staked his position on being the opposite of Bush i.e. all talk and no fight. The Iranians will play him like a fiddle just like they did Carter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James Hurley,</p>
<p><i>Obama has done nothing other than say he would be willing to speak to Iran leaders.</i></p>
<p>Okay, this isn&#8217;t some kind of whacky sitcom mixup that can be fixed by the principle sitting down clearing up misconception. It is a strawman to say that we are not talking to Iran now. We are in constant communication with them both directly through their UN representative and through third parties and informal channels. We know what they want and they know what we want. The fact that Obama appears to believe otherwise indicates that he is either naive or duplicitous. </p>
<p>The only reason to sit down with them in a formal meeting is to make concessions and they know it. They will refuse to negotiate until Obama gives them something they can brag about back home. Then they will demand even more when they show up and Obama will have to give them something or go away looking empty handed and foolish. </p>
<p>I predict this will be Obama&#8217;s behavior based on his foreign policy statements, the foreign policy academics he refers to as well as his foreign policy advisors. His has staked his position on being the opposite of Bush i.e. all talk and no fight. The Iranians will play him like a fiddle just like they did Carter.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293180</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293180</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/02/01/obamas-al-arabiya-interview-honor-shame-dynamics-and-vdhs-analysis/#comments&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Professor Richard Landes explains the Honor Shame dynamic between PBHO and President a_madras_dinner_jacket&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/02/01/obamas-al-arabiya-interview-honor-shame-dynamics-and-vdhs-analysis/#comments" rel="nofollow">Professor Richard Landes explains the Honor Shame dynamic between PBHO and President a_madras_dinner_jacket</a></p>
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		<title>By: james hurley</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293143</link>
		<dc:creator>james hurley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 02:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293143</guid>
		<description>Slow down. Too anxious to badmouth liberals. Obama has done nothing other than say he would be willing to speak to Iran leaders. He has offered nothing and said nothing thus far beyond that and yet on that rather simple offer he gets depicted as some sort of dope? the comment above mine is spot on: we lost out by dumping Saddam. He was a counter-veiling force to Iran; with him gone and America mired in Iraq, Iran took over leadership in the region. Bush goofed. And now you want to jump on Obama for what  has not been done, stated, or even suggested other than meeting to discuss things?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slow down. Too anxious to badmouth liberals. Obama has done nothing other than say he would be willing to speak to Iran leaders. He has offered nothing and said nothing thus far beyond that and yet on that rather simple offer he gets depicted as some sort of dope? the comment above mine is spot on: we lost out by dumping Saddam. He was a counter-veiling force to Iran; with him gone and America mired in Iraq, Iran took over leadership in the region. Bush goofed. And now you want to jump on Obama for what  has not been done, stated, or even suggested other than meeting to discuss things?</p>
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		<title>By: renminbi</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293153</link>
		<dc:creator>renminbi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293153</guid>
		<description>These are people who live in their own minds,only. Here we have a lawyer who never tried a case, a professor who never published a paper ,indeed someone who has never run anything but his mouth and indeed has never done anything productive in his life. How can anyone expect anything from such? How  can anyone expect a system that elevates such to be viable in the long run?

            Someone had better figure out how to make republican government work because,as it stands now, we have a Lord of the Flies situation with our political class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are people who live in their own minds,only. Here we have a lawyer who never tried a case, a professor who never published a paper ,indeed someone who has never run anything but his mouth and indeed has never done anything productive in his life. How can anyone expect anything from such? How  can anyone expect a system that elevates such to be viable in the long run?</p>
<p>            Someone had better figure out how to make republican government work because,as it stands now, we have a Lord of the Flies situation with our political class.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginny</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293149</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293149</guid>
		<description>Shannon, You appear to be arguing (I suspect correctly) that the average academic has little ToM - this is, of course, what they think others lack.  But the ability to think that others think what they do for reasons that are consistent with their vision of the world, values, etc. and yet that is quite different from what we think is what we gain in maturity.  I think you are implying (unfortunately also correctly) that some are caught in a kind of sixteen-year-old narcissism.  They think, however, they are crediting others in a way that those idiots who take their freshman classes and reside in flyover territory do not.  This is questionable.  Of course, I&#039;m often guilty - I assume that most people do not want their kids to grow up impoverished and as cannon fodder, I assume that most people would like a voice in their government.  I still suspect there is some truth to that but leaders can &amp; do their subjects as cannon fodder &amp; have little interest in hearing their voices.  This should not come as a surprise to anyone who has seen how either Pap or Col Grangerford view their children in Huck Finn (realism at its most bitter).  But it is hard to shake our own world view.  (And all the lit in the world doesn&#039;t make us wise at gut level.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shannon, You appear to be arguing (I suspect correctly) that the average academic has little ToM &#8211; this is, of course, what they think others lack.  But the ability to think that others think what they do for reasons that are consistent with their vision of the world, values, etc. and yet that is quite different from what we think is what we gain in maturity.  I think you are implying (unfortunately also correctly) that some are caught in a kind of sixteen-year-old narcissism.  They think, however, they are crediting others in a way that those idiots who take their freshman classes and reside in flyover territory do not.  This is questionable.  Of course, I&#8217;m often guilty &#8211; I assume that most people do not want their kids to grow up impoverished and as cannon fodder, I assume that most people would like a voice in their government.  I still suspect there is some truth to that but leaders can &amp; do their subjects as cannon fodder &amp; have little interest in hearing their voices.  This should not come as a surprise to anyone who has seen how either Pap or Col Grangerford view their children in Huck Finn (realism at its most bitter).  But it is hard to shake our own world view.  (And all the lit in the world doesn&#8217;t make us wise at gut level.)</p>
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		<title>By: F&#251;z</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293137</link>
		<dc:creator>F&#251;z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293137</guid>
		<description>&quot;I can imagine a Machiavellian scenario, which Obama is probably too nice to actually be doing. Offer to meet with these jokers, knowing they will spit in your face, which sets you up to work hard for the non-kinetic kill, and if necessary more direct measures, later on. The long term aim here is a post-Mullah government in Iran we can actually talk to and work with.&quot;

This is what Bush should have been working toward post-9/11, instead of taking down Saddam Hussein.  In fact, we should have skipped the offer to meet, and gone directly for the destabilization of the regime.  

Alas, a bit too late for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I can imagine a Machiavellian scenario, which Obama is probably too nice to actually be doing. Offer to meet with these jokers, knowing they will spit in your face, which sets you up to work hard for the non-kinetic kill, and if necessary more direct measures, later on. The long term aim here is a post-Mullah government in Iran we can actually talk to and work with.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is what Bush should have been working toward post-9/11, instead of taking down Saddam Hussein.  In fact, we should have skipped the offer to meet, and gone directly for the destabilization of the regime.  </p>
<p>Alas, a bit too late for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293133</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293133</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In that case, making the offer, and getting repudiated, is best done as early as possible to get it out of the way.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s not a bad strategy except the Mullahs will probably do what the Soviets did, make a show of agreeing, then breaking any agreement instantly and then portraying and conflict as our fault. The people of Iran may fall for this because we can predict with an absolute certainty that leftist in the west will also blame the west.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In that case, making the offer, and getting repudiated, is best done as early as possible to get it out of the way.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s not a bad strategy except the Mullahs will probably do what the Soviets did, make a show of agreeing, then breaking any agreement instantly and then portraying and conflict as our fault. The people of Iran may fall for this because we can predict with an absolute certainty that leftist in the west will also blame the west.</p>
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		<title>By: Lexington Green</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293131</link>
		<dc:creator>Lexington Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293131</guid>
		<description>Agreed.  The earlier Obama figures this out the better.  It is a good thing the Cold War is over.  Making this sort of mistake with the Soviets was potentially a lethal mistake.  With Iran, we have more freedom of action and they don&#039;t have thousands of ballistic missiles that can reach us in a matter of hours or minutes.  
.
I can imagine a Machiavellian scenario, which Obama is probably too nice to actually be doing.  Offer to meet with these jokers, knowing they will spit in your face, which sets you up to work hard for the non-kinetic kill, and if necessary more direct measures, later on.  The long term aim here is a post-Mullah government in Iran we can actually talk to and work with.  Odds are, the people there would like that, based on reliable reports.  We want to get there without poisoning that future relationship by killing a lot of Iranians.  It would be good to be able to say, &quot;hey, we tried to be reasonable, are YOU guys ready to talk?&quot;  In that case, making the offer, and getting repudiated, is best done as early as possible to get it out of the way.
.
Is Obama thinking like this?  I see no reason to think so.  Too bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed.  The earlier Obama figures this out the better.  It is a good thing the Cold War is over.  Making this sort of mistake with the Soviets was potentially a lethal mistake.  With Iran, we have more freedom of action and they don&#8217;t have thousands of ballistic missiles that can reach us in a matter of hours or minutes.<br />
.<br />
I can imagine a Machiavellian scenario, which Obama is probably too nice to actually be doing.  Offer to meet with these jokers, knowing they will spit in your face, which sets you up to work hard for the non-kinetic kill, and if necessary more direct measures, later on.  The long term aim here is a post-Mullah government in Iran we can actually talk to and work with.  Odds are, the people there would like that, based on reliable reports.  We want to get there without poisoning that future relationship by killing a lot of Iranians.  It would be good to be able to say, &#8220;hey, we tried to be reasonable, are YOU guys ready to talk?&#8221;  In that case, making the offer, and getting repudiated, is best done as early as possible to get it out of the way.<br />
.<br />
Is Obama thinking like this?  I see no reason to think so.  Too bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs. Davis</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/6725.html/comment-page-1#comment-293128</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs. Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=6725#comment-293128</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The mullahs’ view America and the West in general as decadent, godless and predestined by divine will to fall before the righteousness of the mullahs.&lt;/em&gt;

Two out of three ain&#039;t bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The mullahs’ view America and the West in general as decadent, godless and predestined by divine will to fall before the righteousness of the mullahs.</em></p>
<p>Two out of three ain&#8217;t bad.</p>
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