http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/size-matters-so-do-lies.html

– hippieprof

PA avenue was covered from Freedom Plaza to the Capital; that is about 1 mile (WH to Capitol 1.2 miles) of people on a street 6 lanes wide or 80 ft from Googe data. A mile is 5280 ft x 80 ft at 2.5 sq feet per person (Obama’s inauguration number for the mall) gives us over 168,960 people just there at any one time. This human traffic lasted for 3 hours from the media. With the average human walking speed of 3 miles per hour, that is 168,960 people passing a point every 33 minutes or over 3 hours being 9 x 168,960 = 1,520,640. Although, like me not all people started at Freedom Plaza. Many went directly to the Capitol for good “seats” and not all came down PA Ave. The police also asked the protesters to leave the plaza two hours early. Nor does it count the time after 12:30 when people were still arriving or the people on the sidewalks along PA Ave. So the number of 1.5 million may be low.

Now what happen if congress ignores us. Many I talked to are worried that congress will ignore us. That may be helped by the minimal coverage by the media, even FOX concentrated on the Yale student’s disappearance said my wife, who could not attend, and by the low media estimates of participants; 10s of thousands stated FOX, not 100’s of thousand or millions as was more likely the case; 1.5 million from different police officers questioned.

So what if congress ignores us? Well, we would not want to emulate Shay’s Rebellion if at all possible. While it awakened the politicians of the time to the limitations of the Articles of Confederation, it cost 4 Patriots lives and many more wounded. I can imagine if the same sort of armed insurrection started how this Administration would react; an excuse for martial law and sedition acts as was done during President Wilson’s Administration for just criticizing government. A reported 100,000 people were arrested, including the Socialists Party’s presidential candidate, for their freedom of speech exercise.

I worry that if our “march” on DC Saturday will not stop ObamaCare or even if the government option is dropped, the economic freedom issues (i.e. mandatory health care requirement under government mandates) and civil liberties (i.e. IRS held financial and doctors/hospital held medical records released to the government) will remain in some form. I don’t trust the conference committee’s outcome even if the Senate bill is milder in appearance.

What is a better example is the Income Tax Revolt in Tennessee in 1999. Oh, you didn’t hear about that revolt; neither had I since the MSM seems to have neglected to report much on this and it was before blogs were well known, so go to Intapundit’s report at http://glennreynolds.com/?p=8 for some details. We should be prepared to follow that example set in Tennessee after the governor and legislature proposed to vote in a state income tax in 1999. The governor and legislature backed down and to this day TN is income tax free. As with MLK tactics, perseverance does win when you are right.

With the reported 26,000 TEA Party organizations in our great country, we could make life difficult for those cloistered in DC.

OK – before someone misinterprets my tone and accuses me of arrogance, let me get to my point.

You say (regarding my claim that I encourage critical thinking): “No, that is what you think you are doing. If you did that, then your views and the people who listen to you would be constantly shifting and evolving. Your political ideas would change almost as fast as scientific ideas. Instead, we see massive historical stasis in leftist thought. Your not critical about anything you believe, you simply apply critical tools as means of marketing and selling your ideas.”

Shannon – I am just amazed at how well you know me. We have never met – and have only exchanged communications twice. Astounding.

I don’t really need to justify my beliefs to you – but when I see such amazing misconceptions I feel compelled to correct them.

I began my adult life well right of center. Certainly I have shifted to the left, but that has been a long slow process of analysis and reevaluation. You probably doubt my sincerity here – but I have the voting record to prove it. I voted for Reagan twice – and in fact I have voted for more Republicans over the years than Democrats. I called myself an Independent for quite a few years – and I really only started calling myself a Democrat over the last 8 years.

You tell me that I am “part of an arrogant and unreflective subculture that reflexively stereotypes and denigrates others.”

Wow – take a look at what I have written on this thread. You won’t see any denigration. It also seems to me that it is you who is stereotyping me, not the opposite.

I don’t know you at all, so I have nothing to go on here – but I do wonder. Have you had a similar shift in ideology over your lifetime? Just curious.

As always, thanks for the conversation.

– hippieprof

I am curious why I would be considered dangerous?

The same reason that Communist were more dangerous than Fascist. Fascist were obviously hysteric, domineering and dangerous who convinced people by overt emotional appeal to group identity. Communist by contrast were often calm, articulate and convinced many very intelligent people that they not only intended good for everyone but also knew in detail how to do so. In the 30’s and 40’s few non-German Americans and almost no individuals educated at elite universities fell for Fascism but tens of thousands fell for the siren song of Communism. Thousands of those became active agents for Stalin all the while emerged in fantasy about what Communism and Stalin actually were.

In short, articulate people who make cogent and logical arguments based on faulty premises are much, much more dangerous than inarticulate people who can’t make logical arguments at all.

(Of course, the examples of Fascism and Communism are just extreme examples used to highlight a point. I don’t mean that you or anyone else in this discussion is either but I know I must make the ritual statement to that effect because someone will automatically accuse me of doing so.)

In your specific case, you have a flawed premises about the wisdom of investing ever more and more power in the state and in giving politicians more and more control over our day-to-day lives. In each policy area, you can make an articulate and cogent argument for why we should surrender control to people who share your values and beliefs. Your skills at articulation can convince people that do not examine your premises closely that events will unfold as you predicted.

Contrast this with a bohemian with overt hostility to traditional American values. Most people will simply dismiss their overwrought and emotive arguments out of hand. They have little impact on the broader public debate.

I encourage people to think and critically evaluate issues.

No, that is what you think you are doing. If you did that, then your views and the people who listen to you would be constantly shifting and evolving. Your political ideas would change almost as fast as scientific ideas. Instead, we see massive historical stasis in leftist thought. Your not critical about anything you believe, you simply apply critical tools as means of marketing and selling your ideas.

In fact, if looked at objectively you (and other leftist) use emotional arguments, bigoted stereotypes and other forms of non-rational debate. When someone disagrees with you, you are quick to slap a derogatory label on them so you don’t have to answer their questions. You engage in sweeping generalizations of millions of people. You require people who disagree with you on any subject to accept responsibility for actions and statements of anyone else in the entire world who also disagrees with you. And so on…

You are part of an arrogant and unreflective subculture that reflexively stereotypes and denigrates others as casually as people in the south used to use racial slurs. Just like those people, you are shocked and confused when someone points it out to. Just like those people, you are completely unaware of the anger and resent that builds in individuals from years of such bigoted abuse. Just like those people, when someone finally snaps and says something intemperate you explain the remarks as being an innate nature in the mold of the old white southern saying, “The n*gger in them always comes out in the end.”

This is why you constantly run into angry and even abusive non-leftist. You have dumped on them for decades to the point they no longer feel they need to treat you civilly as well.

To whom?

I considered deleting his comment because they did skirt the line but because of the problems with the spam filter I elected to engage him instead. I did so based on the premises that:

(1) He was making a sweeping generalization about the bohemian faction of the left in the same manner that leftist say that, “everyone in the tea party movement is racist.”

(2) I presumed his references to low-life minorities meant the racist political machines that dominate and destroy cities like New Orleans, East St Louis, Detroit, Washington D.C etc. I presumed he meant the people who support and encourage such machines and who see society as something that owes them and from which they can take from at their choosing. I presumed he meant that in the same way when leftist say that Republicans are dominated by neo-nazis or the Klan, that all white people are racist or that all men are sexist etc.

Of course, maybe I was wrong in my presumptions going both ways. Maybe I’m trapped by hysterical ranting bigots on both sides.

“http://www.trafficland.com/city/WAS/

The flag in that photo is at full staff. You’ve yet to provide any reason to believe it was at half-staff yesterday.”

I don’t have to provide you anything, but I did provide the link to the DC traffic cams those disputed pics were taken from, and my testimony that I witnessed those images as they happened.

Either way it is more than you provided, which was just speculation.

Was I using too many big words there?

Good, Now run along, the grownups are busy talking here.

Be sure to respond with lots of name calling, and lies about who I work for, or how racist I am. I can hardly wait.

But no, there’s no racial element at work here. At all.

This having been said, I note that Phifl63 says: “Yes, I will be civil. Thank you. The qualifier “with jobs” is the kicker. Leftists and liberal protestors do tend to be filthy, unemployed hippie types, and low-life minorities. Please let us not stop calling a spade a spade. If the shoe fits, you wear it. Sorry if anyone is offended, but trying to deny that the barbarians are past the gate and among us is foolhardy and did not work for the Romans. New Orleans during and after Katrina shows us what savagery awaits us if we continue in our denial. The D.C. protestors reaffirm my faith that decent, civilized citizens still dominate our country.”

So – that does not strike me as rational conversation. I work with hundreds of clean, well groomed (I am an exception in that way), highly educated and gainfully employed people – most (but certainly not all) of whom are left of center.

Shannon gets it closer – he acknowledges we exist – but sees us as dangerous.

I am curious why I would be considered dangerous? I encourage people to think and critically evaluate issues. I have come to my own conclusions about certain things – but I certainly don’t feel that is the only possible set of conclusions. I would certainly never try to force my conclusions on another person.

So – is discussion of opposing viewpoints really dangerous? I would suggest that believing so puts you a lot closer to totalitarian dictatorship than you might find comfortable.

– hippieprof

Leftists and liberal protestors do tend to be filthy, unemployed hippie types, and low-life minorities.

That’s not true. If it was, they wouldn’t be dangerous. Instead a lot of them are well but miseducated upper income and highly articulate and persuasive individuals who believe themselves on a sacred mission to save the rest of us from our own worse natures.

Those are the dangerous ones.

Thanks Randy.

I looked again and noticed a couple of things that don’t match. The picture isn’t from yesterday. Not enough yellow. There were a sea of Gadsden flags and the sky was overcast. But, if “official” pictures are released, my estimate will bare out.

Winfernal,here’s a better link for ya, buddy.

http://michellemalkin.com/

Don’t be a hater.

: )

Watch your language. No one is impressed you can curse on the internet.

Do I have that right?

Thanks Randy.

The picture isn’t correct. Not enough yellow. There were a sea of Gadsten flags and the sky was overcast. There was a helicopter flying around, so if “official” pictures are released, my estimate will bare out.

Thanks Randy.

The picture isn’t correct. Not enough yellow. There were a sea of Gadsten flags and the sky was overcast. There was a helicopter flying around, so if “official” pictures are released, my estimate will bare out.