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	<title>Comments on: China in Africa</title>
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	<description>Some Chicago Boyz know each other from student days at the University of Chicago. Others are Chicago boys in spirit. The blog name is also intended as a good-humored gesture of admiration for distinguished Chicago boys including those pictured above.</description>
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		<title>By: kurt9</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328693</link>
		<dc:creator>kurt9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;I&gt;If, as is likely, the Chinese leave behind misery, poverty, oppression and another century of lost opportunity, I will enjoy the work of thousands of theorists condemning them, just as the West has been condemned.&lt;/I&gt;

Perhaps the Africans get their act together this time around? Or do you think the fundamentals of HBD make this impossible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If, as is likely, the Chinese leave behind misery, poverty, oppression and another century of lost opportunity, I will enjoy the work of thousands of theorists condemning them, just as the West has been condemned.</i></p>
<p>Perhaps the Africans get their act together this time around? Or do you think the fundamentals of HBD make this impossible?</p>
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		<title>By: tehag</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328678</link>
		<dc:creator>tehag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;They’re just building stuff for their own enrichment and when they leave anything they built will crumble.&quot;

No doubt you&#039;re right, but I think I&#039;ll wait a decade or four before I agree. 

For whose benefit were the farm boards, judicial systems, and telegraphs built? If it was for the benefit of Africans, it failed on every level. We know the effects of the centuries of &quot;White Man&#039;s burden&quot; and the decades of uplift by the World Bank: disaster.  Wouldn&#039;t it be amusing and bemusing if an unintended side effect of the rapacious exploitation of the Chinese actually resulted in a prosperous Africa? 


If, as is likely, the Chinese leave behind misery, poverty, oppression and another century of lost opportunity, I will enjoy the work of thousands of theorists condemning them, just as the West has been condemned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They’re just building stuff for their own enrichment and when they leave anything they built will crumble.&#8221;</p>
<p>No doubt you&#8217;re right, but I think I&#8217;ll wait a decade or four before I agree. </p>
<p>For whose benefit were the farm boards, judicial systems, and telegraphs built? If it was for the benefit of Africans, it failed on every level. We know the effects of the centuries of &#8220;White Man&#8217;s burden&#8221; and the decades of uplift by the World Bank: disaster.  Wouldn&#8217;t it be amusing and bemusing if an unintended side effect of the rapacious exploitation of the Chinese actually resulted in a prosperous Africa? </p>
<p>If, as is likely, the Chinese leave behind misery, poverty, oppression and another century of lost opportunity, I will enjoy the work of thousands of theorists condemning them, just as the West has been condemned.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Milenkovic</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328643</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Milenkovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>All I could think about was

&quot;The horror . . . the horror . . .&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I could think about was</p>
<p>&#8220;The horror . . . the horror . . .&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Shannon Love</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328642</link>
		<dc:creator>Shannon Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328642</guid>
		<description>Tehag,

&lt;i&gt;If China can bring prosperity to Africa by using the methods which have–so far–worked in China, then all its sins will be forgotten&lt;/i&gt;

But they&#039;re not. They&#039;re just building stuff for their own enrichment and when they leave anything they built will crumble. We forget that colonialism left Africa with substantial infrastructure like roads, railroads, harbors, electrical grids etc. The problem was that post-colonial Africa simply lacked the political/social/cultural mechanisms to maintain and extended that infrastructure. 

Even if they attempted to impose Chinese solutions on Africa, they would fail. China has a literally thousands of years of experience with large scale, centrally managed organization. The communist simply ruthlessly exploited deep seated cultural behaviors. No such culture exist in Africa. Any attempt to mimic Chinese behaviors will fail just as the attempts to mimic western socialism failed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tehag,</p>
<p><i>If China can bring prosperity to Africa by using the methods which have–so far–worked in China, then all its sins will be forgotten</i></p>
<p>But they&#8217;re not. They&#8217;re just building stuff for their own enrichment and when they leave anything they built will crumble. We forget that colonialism left Africa with substantial infrastructure like roads, railroads, harbors, electrical grids etc. The problem was that post-colonial Africa simply lacked the political/social/cultural mechanisms to maintain and extended that infrastructure. </p>
<p>Even if they attempted to impose Chinese solutions on Africa, they would fail. China has a literally thousands of years of experience with large scale, centrally managed organization. The communist simply ruthlessly exploited deep seated cultural behaviors. No such culture exist in Africa. Any attempt to mimic Chinese behaviors will fail just as the attempts to mimic western socialism failed.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328641</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 15:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328641</guid>
		<description>Robert Schwartz bringing up Totten on Sri Lanka is very apt, because one of Totten&#039;s major points re Sri Lanka applies here, as well: because of the West&#039;s moral scruples, it simply cannot do what the Chinese are willing to do in dealing with autocrats or situations where brutality is &quot;called for.&quot;

We are warned not to gain the world at the expense of losing our soul, but what about losing the world as we (try to) save our souls?  When do morals become just moralistic?  Do we help Africa, Africans, or ourselves by refusing to get our hands (and souls) a little bit dirty, when there are others, much dirtier, ready to fill the gap?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert Schwartz bringing up Totten on Sri Lanka is very apt, because one of Totten&#8217;s major points re Sri Lanka applies here, as well: because of the West&#8217;s moral scruples, it simply cannot do what the Chinese are willing to do in dealing with autocrats or situations where brutality is &#8220;called for.&#8221;</p>
<p>We are warned not to gain the world at the expense of losing our soul, but what about losing the world as we (try to) save our souls?  When do morals become just moralistic?  Do we help Africa, Africans, or ourselves by refusing to get our hands (and souls) a little bit dirty, when there are others, much dirtier, ready to fill the gap?</p>
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		<title>By: onparkstreet</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328633</link>
		<dc:creator>onparkstreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328633</guid>
		<description>Oops, I read too quickly and didn&#039;t get to the last part of the post, sorry. I am worried the US is taking itself out of the game, and, in doing so, is actually hurting, not helping the poor of Asia and Africa. India and China are open for business, whatever we do, you know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I read too quickly and didn&#8217;t get to the last part of the post, sorry. I am worried the US is taking itself out of the game, and, in doing so, is actually hurting, not helping the poor of Asia and Africa. India and China are open for business, whatever we do, you know?</p>
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		<title>By: onparkstreet</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328632</link>
		<dc:creator>onparkstreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328632</guid>
		<description>Are any of you familiar with Dambisa Moyo&#039;s book Dead Aid, which supposedly (I haven&#039;t read it, it&#039;s on the long, long, long list of &#039;to reads) which argues that the Western Aid regimes to Africa are not working, hold Africa back, and solidify corrupt regimes? She says, to some shocking effect, that Chinese development may be more helpful! It shocked me because of the kinds of stories in this post!

&quot;Moyo argues for more innovative ways for Africa to finance development including trade with China, accessing the capital markets, micro financing, and job creation.&quot;

http://en.afrik.com/article15848.html

I don&#039;t know the answer to helping Africa, and I don&#039;t know about Chinese development and business, but I don&#039;t think our open-ended Western aid is really helping, overall. What do others think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are any of you familiar with Dambisa Moyo&#8217;s book Dead Aid, which supposedly (I haven&#8217;t read it, it&#8217;s on the long, long, long list of &#8216;to reads) which argues that the Western Aid regimes to Africa are not working, hold Africa back, and solidify corrupt regimes? She says, to some shocking effect, that Chinese development may be more helpful! It shocked me because of the kinds of stories in this post!</p>
<p>&#8220;Moyo argues for more innovative ways for Africa to finance development including trade with China, accessing the capital markets, micro financing, and job creation.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.afrik.com/article15848.html" rel="nofollow">http://en.afrik.com/article15848.html</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the answer to helping Africa, and I don&#8217;t know about Chinese development and business, but I don&#8217;t think our open-ended Western aid is really helping, overall. What do others think?</p>
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		<title>By: Carl from Chicago</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328631</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl from Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Here is the URL for the economist story

http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=348951&amp;story_id=14664647

The point overall of this story is that by not realizing that the Chinese are acting unilaterally all of our Western plans are for naught... we wreck our economies to curb carbon while they slap up new coal burning plants every day... we try to sanction African countries and tell our companies they can&#039;t do business there (the way it is actually conducted) and then China just swoops in and takes all the contracts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the URL for the economist story</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=348951&#038;story_id=14664647" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=348951&#038;story_id=14664647</a></p>
<p>The point overall of this story is that by not realizing that the Chinese are acting unilaterally all of our Western plans are for naught&#8230; we wreck our economies to curb carbon while they slap up new coal burning plants every day&#8230; we try to sanction African countries and tell our companies they can&#8217;t do business there (the way it is actually conducted) and then China just swoops in and takes all the contracts.</p>
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		<title>By: tehag</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328630</link>
		<dc:creator>tehag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Does China treat its own subjects better or worse than Africans? Compare and contrast 1950s, 1960s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s treatment with contemporary treatment of Africans by Chinese.

If China can bring prosperity to Africa by using the methods which have--so far--worked in China, then all its sins will be forgotten. A thousand years from now, the West will be denounced for its colonialism because it didn&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does China treat its own subjects better or worse than Africans? Compare and contrast 1950s, 1960s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s treatment with contemporary treatment of Africans by Chinese.</p>
<p>If China can bring prosperity to Africa by using the methods which have&#8211;so far&#8211;worked in China, then all its sins will be forgotten. A thousand years from now, the West will be denounced for its colonialism because it didn&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose Angel de Monterrey</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328628</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose Angel de Monterrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328628</guid>
		<description>China is also at the center of the Darfur tragedy, supporting the genocide regime of Sudan with weapons and military training.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7503428.stm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0626/p01s08-woaf.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>China is also at the center of the Darfur tragedy, supporting the genocide regime of Sudan with weapons and military training.<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7503428.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7503428.stm</a><br />
<a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0626/p01s08-woaf.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0626/p01s08-woaf.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328626</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 04:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328626</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/07/a-conversation.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Along the same lines read Michael Totten&#039;s interview with Robert Kaplan&lt;/a&gt; about the Chinese role in Sri Lanka&#039;s roll up of the Tamil Tigers.

BTW: Carl could you give us the URL for the Economist article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/07/a-conversation.php" rel="nofollow">Along the same lines read Michael Totten&#8217;s interview with Robert Kaplan</a> about the Chinese role in Sri Lanka&#8217;s roll up of the Tamil Tigers.</p>
<p>BTW: Carl could you give us the URL for the Economist article.</p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/9809.html/comment-page-1#comment-328625</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 04:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chicagoboyz.net/?p=9809#comment-328625</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;but I was told once that the writers at “The Onion” start with the headline and then write the story.&lt;/i&gt;

Could well be. I knew a woman who wrote stories for one of the supermarket tabloids. Her employer would send her a picture and then she would write the story. Except her stories were so outlandish they had to move her to a &quot;lower&quot; quality publication ;) OTOH, it is unlikely that her stories were any more outlandish than those of, say, Walter Duranty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>but I was told once that the writers at “The Onion” start with the headline and then write the story.</i></p>
<p>Could well be. I knew a woman who wrote stories for one of the supermarket tabloids. Her employer would send her a picture and then she would write the story. Except her stories were so outlandish they had to move her to a &#8220;lower&#8221; quality publication ;) OTOH, it is unlikely that her stories were any more outlandish than those of, say, Walter Duranty.</p>
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