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  • LEGAL Immigration: Bargain-Priced at $9 Billion ($100 / Family)

    Posted by Chicago Boyz Archive on June 9th, 2005 (All posts by )

    It is good to put a price tag on things, for clarity.

    I did a little Googling and I found out what the Israelis are paying per-kilometer for their walls around the West Bank and Gaza. At the same cost per km, the USA could build a wall from the Gulf to the Pacific for $9 billion. That is only a ballpark estimate, but it is certainly not an insurmountably large sum. We could get a large increment of national security by foregoing a few ships and aircraft. Totally worth it. We have cross-border gangs operating which are very serious security threats. Wall them out.

    I am a great believer in large amounts of LEGAL immigration. We have Julian Simon on our masthead for a reason.

    But the USA needs to get a grip on what is currently happening along our southern border. Securing that border is an absolutely necessary start. Well-appointed and well-guarded gate areas would allow the passage of legitimate commerce and personal travel. But we should make a decision as a people to obtain control of the border. The liberals like the idea of lots of illegals whom they can funnel benefits to and whom they can turn into Democrats. On the GOP side, the business and farming community likes the dirt cheap labor that cannot ask for benefits or be unionized and that cannot sue when injured or poisoned. This unholy alliance needs to be slapped aside. Most of us have no liberal guilt about illegal immigrants, and the people who get a commercial advantage out of employing illegal workers get no pity or sympathy from me, either. As to people in California who will have to pay more to have their yards kept pretty, the worlds smallest violin remains silent for them, too.

    OK, so are you ready to cough up $100 per American household to wall off the border and allow only LEGAL cross-border traffic?

    Will someone make this a campaign issue in 2008, ya think?

     

    51 Responses to “LEGAL Immigration: Bargain-Priced at $9 Billion ($100 / Family)”

    1. -keith in mtn. view Says:

      Why build *up* a wall when you can dig a trench? Solves the tunnel problem. :-) The IDF are also adopting a new tool to fight the tunnelling bomb-runners (since the “Protest Briagdistas” are calling a boycott on Caterpillar), a biger dozer.
      And while that’a cool, it’s but a pip-squeek, check out this piece of equipment. Good Lord I want one!

    2. Lex Says:

      Keith, those are some serious bad boys. Thanks for the pix.

    3. Anonymous Says:

      $100/family is an acceptable price for such a wall. I have a suggestion to reduce that cost/family and/or raise the dollars available to build a higher wall or increase the patrols along it…

      Estimates for the number of illegal immigrants in the US range from 6M to 20M (at least the one’s I’ve seen). Assume reality is somewhere near the midpoint, between 12M and 15M. Offer an “amnesty” at $1000 per person. If 10M take it that’s $10B.

    4. Tman Says:

      I’m in for a C-note…..but I say we figure out what to do with the ones already here first.

    5. Steven Den Beste Says:

      1400 kilometers of our border with Mexico runs down the middle of the Rio Grande river. I doubt that Israel’s fence technology would work in the middle of Falcon Reservoir.

    6. Right Side of the Rainbow Says:

      Cost of free people and free markets: $9 billion

      Lexington Green at Chicago Boyz: The liberals like the idea of lots of illegals whom they can funnel benefits to and whom they can turn into Democrats. On the GOP side, the business and farming community likes the dirt cheap…

    7. Mike Beversluis Says:

      Steven,

      This is a zero-order thought, but why not build the fence on the riverbank? Or even a ways back? Not every yard fence sits exactly on the property line, and if people want to use the river or basin, they can go through a checkpoint.

      2nd, this should be closely tied to legalizing and regulating the current illegal workers – and once they are registered workers, why not take a cut to pay for the fence?

    8. Sandy P Says:

      –We could get a large increment of national security by foregoing a few ships and aircraft. Totally worth it. We have cross-border gangs operating which are very serious security threats. Wall them out.–

      Take up a collection plate and I’m in.

      Can you imagine?

      Americans ponying up out of their own pockets to pay for the wall?

    9. Sandy P Says:

      On the other hand, get the Mexicans to pay for it, they sent back over $13 billion last year, IIRC.

      Can you imagine that brouhaha?

      Tax it on the wired/check/MO way out, confiscate it going across the border.

    10. MP Says:

      Securing that border is an absolutely nescessary start.
      Start to what, fighting terrorism or fighting immigration? Because if you were truly a believer in “large amounts of LEGAL immigration”, then immigration laws would be lax and only criminals and those unfit to work (or without a family to support them) would be turned back at the border. A truly open immigration policy would alleviate any feeling of needing a wall. And a wall would not be effective against terrorists (see Ok. City). It just sounds like the wrong place to invest our security dollars.

    11. John Thacker Says:

      The Wall Street Journal has a cheaper solution.

    12. Sulaiman Says:

      What about increasing the level of LEGAL immigration so that we won’t have ILLEGAL immigration? What about auctioning Green Cards to immigrants who do not pose a security threat?

      And what happens to the rights/liberty of Americans who want to do business with non-American citizens? Should we also build a “wall” to stop the flow of e-commerce on the Internet because a bunch of Indians are “taking American jobs away”?

      Building walls to keep people out or in has always been the beginning of the end of the dynamism of every society. Law of one price and the forces of supply/demand can NOT be repealed through legislation. The leftists have not learned this lesson (minimum wage) and I am afraid to say that the Buchananite right hasn’t either (caps on labor supply). And as far as I know, no terrorist has come from the southern border … these are people who come here to do jobs that Americans are unwilling to do. They come here so that they can feed their families, not to kill people.

      Build walls and then watch capital flee America.

    13. Jonathan Says:

      MP and Sulaiman make good points. Is it more important to keep out terrorists or to restrict illegal immigration? Measures to restrict immigration, such as forbidding illegals from having driving licenses, may make catching terrorists more difficult. What’s the priority? “Both” isn’t likely to work well.

      And the issue of illegal immigration is closely connected to the disgraceful state of our immigration bureaucracy. There are too many hoops to jump through to come here legally. For many workers it’s only worth immigrating if they can do so illegally, because doing it legally is either impossible or is so burdensome as to be not worth it. Abusing immigrants and prospective immigrants, as our system now too often does, or cracking down on the people who can’t afford to jump through the hoops, as many “tough on illegal immigration” people now propose, is not likely to improve the underlying situation.

      Immigrants come here by and large because they want to work, and because Americans want to employ them. The main problem is that our bureaucracy gets in the way. The other problem is that terrorists might infiltrate our borders, but cracking down on illegal gardners and the people who hire them seems unlikely to reduce terrorism.

    14. KO Says:

      At the same cost per km, the USA could build a wall from the Gulf to the Pacific for $9 billion.

      I never thought I’d see the day when Americans would even seriously propose building such a thing.. a wall around america to keep the savages out… Hitler would be proud. There have to be other solutions – The romans built a wall in britain for all the good it did them… then theres the berlin wall..

    15. someone Says:

      Being in favor of lots of legal immigration != being in favor of mass immigration from countries that happen to be next to us.

      Why give them the advantage?

    16. pj Says:

      I’m in for $100, or more.

      If we do not control our borders we will not have a country left, though some want a United States of the Americas (both North and South). Not me.

    17. Shannon Love Says:

      All other considerations aside, the wall wouldn’t work because it would be much more expensive than Lex’s back of the envelope calculations would suggest.

      First of all,the cost of constructing and operating such a system out in the wilderness of the American Southwest will be many times higher than constructing one in the comparably urban environment of Israel.

      Secondly, although we call it a wall, which suggest a static permanent structure, the Israeli system is actually a dynamic security system. You just can’t though up a pile of rocks and walk away from it if you expect it to work. The entire length of the wall will have to be manned in some manner. Otherwise, people will just prop up a ladder, cut the wire and come on over. It would take a force of tens of thousands to operate the wall-system every year. The labor cost alone would be in the billions. (Federal employees ain’t cheap.)

      If the purpose of the wall is national security then we should build one first on the Canadian border. The number of terrorist or terrorist suspects apprehended coming from Canada is approaching 100 while the number caught coming from Mexico remains at zero.

    18. Sulaiman Says:

      Paleo-conservatives — call Haider and Le Pen.

      This “build a wall around America” mentality is no different than the right-wing mentality that exists in Europe. “No to Muslim Turks … No to Polish Plumber”. This kind of jingoistic approach to very complex issues – usually associated with the thoughtless religious right and wrapped around the protectionist flag – has been defeated at every election in the US. And George Bush rightly expelled Buchanan from the ranks of Republicans before his ilk totally ruined the party of Lincoln. The damage, however, is still there — neither Jewish nor Latin voters completely trust the Republicans. And Blacks will probably never forgive the Republicans as long as they have Trent Lotts within their ranks. And other immigrants like myself who are not even a race – sorry, an ethnic “minority” – in the Federal government census have strong doubts about Republicans’ commitment to extending American promise of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to non-WASPs (recent update non-Whites).

    19. mishu Says:

      I’m with Sulaiman. The wall talk actually supports Howard Dean’s characterization of Republicans rather than lambasts it as it should.

    20. Shannon Love Says:

      Sulaiman,

      While I am sympathetic to your argument I would point out that dismissing complaints about immigration because many making them are nativist or racist is just as bad. Real problems with illegal immigration exist regardless of the personal motives of those who talk about them.

      The negative consequences of the open border and the resulting illegal immigration tend to be geographically concentrated. The vast majority of Americans experience only a net benefit from illegal immigration but those that do experience harm tend to get hammered. In many border areas it is nearly impossible to find a low skill entry level job. Public facilities like schools, hospitals and jails are saturated. Criminals bounce back and forth across the border escaping prosecution. There are actual shanty towns in many border areas, communities without paved roads, running water or real buildings. Worse, virtually all the cost associated with dealing with the needs of illegal aliens come from state and local budgets. The Federal government provides no reimbursement to local governments even though it mandates that the illegals be cared for.

      Much of the anger that you see in the immigration debates comes from communities who are required to deal with all the negative consequences of illegal immigration on their own while the rest of the country just skates along.

      Don’t let idiots like Buchanan lead you into dismissing the people who have real valid concerns.

    21. Sulaiman Says:

      Shannon – legalize them and you won’t have the problems you mentioned. And let law enforcement concentrate on keeping the criminals/terrorists out. We are wasting law enforcement resources on enforcing an idiotic immigration policy — trying to keep out those who are voting with their feet for America, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence.

    22. mariana Says:

      You guys do realize that if the illegal immigration from Mexico isn’t stopped eventually the American Southwest will turn into a Spanish-speaking version of Quebec? The flood of people is just too large and the states will be overwhelmed. And do you really think that Quebec would bother to stay part of Canada if it was geographically located next to France? This is only trouble.

      No country can handle mass immigration indefinitely without being completely drowned. America is as strong and as powerful as it is largely due to cultural reasons. Indefinite mass immigration will kill the goose who laid the golden egg, and we’ll just end up as another one of those countries the talented and successful flee.

      “If the purpose of the wall is national security then we should build one first on the Canadian border. The number of terrorist or terrorist suspects apprehended coming from Canada is approaching 100 while the number caught coming from Mexico remains at zero.”

      I suspect that’s partly because they seem to play catch and release with all OTMs, and if my memory serves me, this is completely incorrect. Suspect people have been caught coming over the border illegally including one Muslim woman who carried some suspicious South African passports. Of course, do you really think the US is able to catch all those who cross? If we have relatively few people crossing illegally from Canada to Mexico, and an estimated 100 of those caught were terrorists, then out of an influx of millions a year from Mexico, how many do you think will be terrorists? Especially since it’s easier for terrorists to blend in Mexico than in Canada.

      Hisorically. the US has gone through periods of mass immigration then slammed the doors shut for ten or twenty years in order to Americanize the newcomers. This is what we need to do. This doesn’t mean we’ll be entering some sort of long term decline. Eventually, we’ll open up the doors again. I’d have no problem replacing the greencard lottery system with a system similar to Australia’s where people get points for job skills, speaking English, high education levels, etc, etc. This slowdown in immigration would allow us to rebuild the bureaucracy and hopefully create a half way functional immigration system.

      Anyway, if you’re really in favor of mass illegal and unskilled immigration, which I am not, then you should have to pay their enormous health care tab, not me. Because if unskilled and illegal immigration isn’t stopped, we will end up with socialist health care. As well, you can pay the high cost of their incarceration, free education, housing, not me.

    23. j.scott barnard Says:

      Let’s buy the wall of China and ship it over brick by brick. It’s much more attractive than the Israeli-style fencing, and we could probably get it cheap. Then let’s build a moat and fill it with boiling tar and place the heads of errant immigrants on stakes at intervals along the wall. Oh, and it’d be cool if we could teach the guards some sort of theme song, low, deep and repetitive “Oh E Oh” type stuff. And flying monkeys, gotta have them. That’s the kind of country I’ve been hoping we’d turn into one day! America! F*** Yeah!

    24. mariana Says:

      In addition, latino immigrants seem to be doing very poorly education-wise. The drop out rates for Latinos legal and illegal is higher than it is for black Americans. Read that link. The numbers are scary. A considerable number of those drop outs are goign to end up in prison. And we all know that’s costly as well. In todays’ economy where you need a college degree to make decent money, does it really help Americans to be creating a large class of unskilled and uneducated workers? Many of whom will undoubtedly have a grudge over their poverty and have considerable trouble learning the language. Japanese, Korean, Indian and Chinese immigrants learn to speak English faster than Latinos. Let’s have more Asian immigrants. They also perform significantly better in school.

      From that link:
      “Being brutally candid means recognizing that the huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled Latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process.

      But no society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many are poor and unskilled. There are now an estimated 34 million immigrants in the United States, about a third of them illegal. About 35 percent lack health insurance and 26 percent receive some sort of federal benefit, reports Steven Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies. To make immigration succeed, we need (paradoxically) to control immigration.

      No industrialized modern high tech society has a boundless capacity to undermine the pillars that make it work.”

    25. Sulaiman Says:

      mariana – same prejudices that you list here were also said about non-WASP Europeans, Jews, and other undesireables.

      The good news is that the American public is smarter than the flag-waving Colonel Blimps — they don’t vote for politicians who stand up for this kind of mentality because they remember well where their ancestors, who were not better off than today’s “Mexicans”, came from.

    26. Catastrophic Success Says:

      Hondo

      Here’s mine Lex

    27. Shannon Love Says:

      Sulaiman,

      “legalize them and you won’t have the problems you mentioned.”

      Well no, because most of the problems don’t have anything to do with the legality of the people’s resident status. As Milton Friedman himself has pointed out, the existence of the welfare state precludes a market managed open door immigration policy.

      The basic economic problem is that in a developed nation low skilled workers are net consumers of economic resources. For example, the children of immigrants must be educated to tune of something like $4,000 dollars a year per child. An immigrant family with two parents working at minimum wage with two children will not produce $8000 dollars in tax revenues every year. Over the course of the lifetimes, they will work their way up and become net producers but short term, say on the order

    28. mariana Says:

      Did you actually look at the information? It’s all taken from studies that have been done. Measurements of drop out rates, the costs of health care for illegal and unskilled immigrants, etc. It’s not prejudice, it’s math, actual research that’s been done into health care costs and the educational system. The majority are not doing well. If you look further through that site you’ll find that even after four generations Latinos still perform poorly in school. They still have very high drop out rates. That particular stat was included in Samuel Huntington’s most recent book. This is based on actual data, not myth or suspicion. The accusation of racism is pretty poor when a person is offering you actual research. The fact that you fling accusations of prejudice at me instead of answering me based on the issues means that I’ve already won. Can you explain to me why it’s good to do things that exacerbate the already skyrocketing health care costs or the creaking education system?

      When it comes to this issue, I used to have opinions similar to the other posters. I was absolutely for all immigration. I still am for immigration, just controlled and monitored immigration that admits people who will not be dependent on taxes but will go straight to the middle class, educated workers who will swell the ranks of the middle class, not the poor. I only started to change my attitude when I began to examine the statistics regarding education, incarceration levels for immigrants, the health care system, etc. and realized that the number of people and type of people (illiterate, etc) we admit make the situation worse.

    29. Ken Says:

      The problem is welfare benefits and inadequate crime control.

      Without those two things, the immigrants we don’t want wouldn’t even bother showing up. We’d get the ones that wanted to live by trade, and had the skills to make it happen, not the ones that are looking for a handout or a place where they can steal with minimum risk.

      Solve those two things, and we can have unlimited legal immigration and once again attract and embrace the best the world has to offer.

      (Yeah, it’s politically impossible. So’s a wall. Any other bright ideas?)

    30. mariana Says:

      Ken’s hit the nail on the head. The problem is the welfare state. Back in the nineteenth and early 20th centuries, the stupid, lazy and unlucky immigrants from Europe who couldn’t hack it here went home. I’ve read that approximately half of the Italian immigrants who came here went back. And about a third of Irish went back to Ireland. This winnowing process while harsh is good for the country because the smartest, toughest and luckiest stay.

    31. GUYK Says:

      Whether we like it or not immigrants are doing the work that few Americans will do-at any price. Produce fields are not only labor intensive but the labor is backbreaking. Moreover, the competition from other countries is tough and growers cannot survive without inexpensive labor.But, there are some ways to control immigration, especially Mexican immigration and still have the labor required.

      First, we already have a law in place that requires employers to verify the legal status of labor. Put some teeth into these laws and enforce them. Make the significant enough to get attention and jail for a year on the second offense and so on until employers get the message.

      Second, require proof of legal residency before allowing anyone to avail themselves of social services of any kind. Cold heated? Yes indeed but I also consider the alternative if the current situation is allowed to continue.

      Third, reestablish a guest worker program that issues temperary work permits and green cards. Employers will be required to recruit, screen,and pay round trip transportation as well as provide housing and medical care.

      American agri-business needs the cheap labor to survive. It is not a situation where higher labor costs can be passed on to the consummer because not only is there not enough American laborers to meet the demand; American consummers will pass on the higher priced home grown to buy imported produce. ( It has already happened with other consummer goods-think China and WalMart)

    32. Sulaiman Says:

      I guess the words below are meaningless now as some of us like to kick the very ladder which we (or our ancestors) climbed.

      Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
      With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
      Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
      A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
      Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
      From her beacon-hand
      Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
      The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
      “”Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!”” cries she
      With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
      Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
      The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
      Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
      I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    33. mariana Says:

      The ideal is beautiful, but unfortunately, we have to live in the reality.

      This “like to kick the very ladder which we (our ancestors climbed” stuff is patently ludicrous. My ancestors would never have said to me that I should tolerate admitting millions of people whose strain on our resources would make it difficult to afford health care or a decent education for my kids. Why should I kick the ladder out from under myself? They came here to improve their lives and their children’s lives, why would they want me to do something to harm the very thing they sacrificed for? Talk about a slap to your ancestors.

    34. Michael Hiteshew Says:

      We could advertise ourselves as the “World’s Largest Gated Community” ;)

      Nice try, won’t work. We can’t wall the world out. History is full of examples. They’ll go around, under, over…unless, of course, you also propose we mine the Gulf, mine the border, install machine gun towers, razor wire, dogs, etc. Be just like living in East Berlin. All we’ll be lacking is the searchlights and random searches by the Ministry of State Security for ID: “Where are your papers? Hurry up. I haven’t got all day swine!”

      A better long-term plan is to tackle the economic and political problems in Mexico and Central America. We’re far better off with neighbors that are free and prosperous than poor and hostile.

    35. Ginny Says:

      Maybe if we could do it at the turn of the last century we can at this one – but assimilation needs to be a central goal to both tbose that are here and those that are coming in.

    36. Sulaiman Says:

      mariana – “They came here to improve their lives and their children’s lives” — thank you! Now, you don’t think the “Mexicans” should have the same opportunity? Where do you think you would be if America was closed to your ancestors? What is the difference between us and the tribalism that we left behind in the old world IF we do not try to live up to our ideals? Those “idealistic” words above are carved on the foot of the Statue of Liberty in NY.

      One point that has not been made in this discussion is that in a market economy, people are an asset and not a liability. Only in a socialist society, people are seen as mouths to be fed.

      Ginny – couldn’t agree with you more. We have to look at Europe and its failure with multiculturalism.. In slums of Kabul (my ancestoral home) people are learning English in order to get a piece of action in this globalized economy. Our misguided liberal friends in the US think it is a better idea for some immigrants – particularly those from Latin America – to study in their native language. Give the uneducated parents a choice of schooling for their kids and I can assure you that the vast majority will choose English – the American version – over Spanish. We might have many more Miguel Stradas or Alberto Gonzales among their ranks.

    37. pj Says:

      I haven’t seen any comments about the Mexican separatist movement in the US, though many who do not live in Southern border states apparently aren’t very aware of it.

      “Give the uneducated parents a choice of schooling for their kids and I can assure you that the vast majority will choose English – the American version – over Spanish.”

      No way can anyone assure me of this when I see the opposite everyday.

      About doing the jobs Americans won’t do… in those areas of the country where there are not yet an overwhelming number of illegal aliens, Ameicans are doing those jobs.

    38. pj Says:

      I haven’t seen any comments about the Mexican separatist movement in the US, though many who do not live in Southern border states apparently aren’t very aware of it.

      “Give the uneducated parents a choice of schooling for their kids and I can assure you that the vast majority will choose English – the American version – over Spanish.”

      No way can anyone assure me of this when I see the opposite everyday.

      About doing the jobs Americans won’t do… in those areas of the country where there are not yet an overwhelming number of illegal aliens, Ameicans are doing those jobs.

    39. KO Says:

      My ancestors would never have said to me that I should tolerate admitting millions of people whose strain on our resources would make it difficult to afford health care or a decent education for my kids.

      Your ancestors, having experienced something akin to what current immigrants have, would probably empathize with them more – you just seem to view ‘immigrants’ as a problem – they are also people, who like your ancestors are aiming and working towards a better life.

      The American immigration system is broken, but don’t blame the immigrants for that.

    40. Sandy P Says:

      –I guess the words below are meaningless now as some of us like to kick the very ladder which we (or our ancestors) climbed.–

      I resent that remark, they did not sacrifice everything to make dangerous 6-8 week crossings via the Atlantic or Pacific.

      They don’t have to cut the ties. You cannot assimilate as well if you can go home in a few hours. No bilingual classes, English immersion only.

      And no dual citizenship.

      Besides, a lot of them aren’t yearning to be free, they want to work and leave.

      And we used to not let people in w/infectious diseases, yet we’re starting to see diseases we haven’t in years.

      I’ve been wondering lately since Lady Liberty was a gift from our “historic friend and ally” if we really haven’t been hosed – they certainly didn’t want the great unwashed at their doors, hey, let’s send them to America!

    41. mariana Says:

      Mexicans have had that opportunity. Millions of them have entered this country, but allowing that flow to continue will do nothing to improve the lot of the average Mexican in Mexico or in the US. Allowing the population influx just relieves pressure on Mexico’s elites to live up to their responsibilities in creating a good life for their people. They’ve figured out how to cure poverty alright: get the poor to deport themselves! The Americans will pay for it. And the illegals will even send money back! As well, the continued illegal immigration influx holds down wages for Mexicans who are already here. Continued mass immigration is cutting even into their standard of living. How does this help anyone?

      I’d have no problem creating a massive Marshall Plan for Mexico constituting billions of dollars in aid that would focus on cleaning up corruption and building basic infrastructure (clean water, decent restroom and bathing facilities, roads, etc) in the poorest areas; however, the situation will not improve in Mexico until the US puts pressure on Mexico to reform. The best way to do this is to cut off the illegal immigration safety valve.

      I really don’t understand your attitude, Sulaiman. Do you expect us to take in all the world’s poor? Or all Mexico’s poor? Are we not living up to our ideals by not immediately importing several billion poor people? How is this country supposed to function if we taken in 30 million poverty stricken illiterate non-English speakers? The public schools can barely teach English-speaking Americans to read. 50 million? How about 100 million? You clearly feel a limit is immoral. I feel not having limits is suicidal. You seem to be unwilling to countenance the negative effects of the policy you desire.

      “Those “idealistic” words above are carved on the foot of the Statue of Liberty in NY.”
      No way. I didn’t know that. You still haven’t even bothered to contest any of the arguments I made in earlier postings. I certainly hope you don’t lose your health insurance because your employer can no longer afford it due to the massive numbers of illegal uninsured taxing the system to death. Or you don’t live in a part of California where the emergency rooms went out of business due to illegal immigration.

      “Your ancestors, having experienced something akin to what current immigrants have, would probably empathize with them more – you just seem to view ‘immigrants’ as a problem – they are also people, who like your ancestors are aiming and working towards a better life.”

      Have you read my previous posts in this thread? Apparently not, because you wouldn’t be able to make such an ignorant statement otherwise.

      “The American immigration system is broken, but don’t blame the immigrants for that.”

      The American criminal justice system is broken, but don’t blame the criminals for that. Of course, the criminals aren’t solely to blame, but they are part of the problem. Afterall, there would be no crime without criminals.

      pj, I mentioned the separatism movement earlier, but no one commented on it. Gee. It’s real smart to allow millions of people to move into an area of the US that they feel really belongs to their own neighboring country. Especially since they’re taught from an early age that the Americans stole that land. The recent Los Angeles, Mexico billboard flap, anyone?

    42. mariana Says:

      The [sarcasm] tags I placed around “No way. I didn’t know that.” vanished despite not being real html. Odd.

    43. mariana Says:

      Sandy P’s right. Malaria and TB have been making a comeback because we’re not able to adequately filter the people entering. And I agree with the no dual citizenship comment you made.

    44. pj Says:

      mariana,You did mention the separatist movement, I missed it. Sorry. To many people in the country aren’t aware of it or don’t take it seriously.

      About disease and repercussions on our health care system resulting from illegal aliens (not legal immigrants):

      Illegal Aliens and American Medicine
      Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons
      http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

    45. Anonymous Says:

      Re. “jobs Americans won’t do”

      Americans will do the jobs if you offer them $20/hour or so and benefits. If you can’t grow tomatoes for a profit here under those conditions, give it up, sell the land, start a new endeavor or do something else.

      Tough, I know, but the alternative is the illegal immigration and concomitant degradation of US society.

      It’s analogous to the Wal-Mart haters dilema isn’t it? That is, the incorrect argument that the big box should shut down because it may put a few smaller concerns out of business. It may do that, but in the process it legitamately raises the standard of living for whole communities.

    46. Ken Says:

      “Second, require proof of legal residency before allowing anyone to avail themselves of social services of any kind.”

      Screw that, require proof of citizenship before handing out social services. Those that don’t like that deal can stay home, and save us the trouble of keeping them out.

      Those that are just fine with that deal, and want a chance to pull their own weight in a free society? Those are the ones we want, as many of them as we can attract. They’re the ones that’ll be an asset.

    47. Alan Blair Says:

      There is a huge and growing Third World Population. Over 60% of them would like to move to the developed world. Hence, the US needs effective immigration controls. The West is the historical exception. Immigration on this scale would most likely destroy the cultural matrix that lets us reinvent ourselves.

      I do not think a Wall is the way to go. Alas, given the growing threat of terrorism and the easier availability of WMD a National ID system is necessary. We can couble it together from existing IDs. Anyone who cannot biometrically prove they are a citzen or here legally cannot get hired, cannot get social services, cannot go to school, and gets deported within 72 hours.

      I think the cost of such a Federated Database with security controls is on the order of three or four billion dollars. The benefits are much larger.

      There are civil liberties concerns, but basically I think we are going back to small town America. We are all going to know a lot of each other’s business. People have no right no anonimity. If we all see and use the records they become more like the Public road system, rather then a central government threat to liberty (I think).

    48. Alan Blair Says:

      On the other hand, I am all for patriotic legal immigration. Legal immigrants add a lot to this nation. I believe the US is the destination of 50% of all the World’s immigrants. Whatever, level of immigration US citizen want should be what we have. I tend to think that a five year moritoriam and then perhaps 700,000/year (favor those who speak english and are eduated) would be the way to go.

    49. Anonymous Says:

      To all those guys that they are against the mexican or anybody else no american, they will pay for it for that discrimination, that´shy they are punished with hurricanes, Earthquakes is because there is a GOD! full of justice.

    50. Lex Says:

      To all those guys who post comments against bloggers who do not actually read the post, they will pay for their accusing said bloggers of not liking Mexicans, when they do like Mexicans, because there is a God full of justice, who expects you to actually read and think before you type and post.

    51. Mr. Econotarian Says:

      Let me know when that “War on Drugs” is stopping drugs from coming into the country, then we can do the whole “War on Immigrants” things.

      Someday people will realize that freedom works better than most regulation.