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  • Millions of 2020 Votes Will Be Stolen – How To Tell If Yours Is One

    Posted by Trent Telenko on October 5th, 2020 (All posts by )

    The Democratic Party’s vote-by-mail scheme (which is NOT the same as absentee ballots) and, worse, its previous and expanded “vote-harvesting” scheme, will steal millions of votes to re-elect Trump, and for Republican candidates, in the 2020 election. This is NOT counting fraudulent votes. This is stealing Republican votes by changing them to Democratic votes. Here is how they do it, and how you can determine if your vote is stolen. If this clear signal that your vote has been stolen appears, do not walk away quietly. FIGHT BACK! How to do that is also explained.

    Absentee ballots and vote-by-mail differ in that individual voters request absentee ballots for their current address, while mail-in-ballots (or “applications” for them) are automatically sent by state voting officials to every possible voter at their last-known address, even if they are dead or have moved away. And absentee ballots must be received by Election Day, while mail-in ballots in most states allowing them can be received days or even a week after the election and, depending on the state, do not require post-marks or other evidence that they were posted by election day. Every state allows absentee ballots, while there is a wide variation on mail-in votes. Some states don’t allow them at all, some states do only for 2020 due to COVID-19, some states send “applications” for them which voters purportedly fill out and return, and some states send every possible voter a ballot to be filled out and returned.

    Vote-harvesting lets people other than the US Postal Service deliver ballots purportedly filled out by voters to polling places, even hundreds of ballots at once. Vote-harvesting as allowed in California in 2018, and now in other states such as North Carolina, has no controls whatever against fraud by the people delivering the harvested ballots. Vote-harvesting is voter fraud pure and simple. No state allowing it is a democracy any more.

    Mail-in ballots are so vulnerable to fraud that the United States seems to be the only country in the world which allows them. The most common way the Democrats commit fraud with mail-in votes is made possible by a rule or practice that the “first ballot processed” by election officials from a particular voter is deemed the only official one.

    So if a fraudulent mail-in ballot, purportedly from a registered voter, is processed by election officials before the real voter votes in person, only the fraudulent mail-in ballot is counted.

    Sometimes the real voter finds out about this in the polling place – “You’ve already voted so we won’t give you a ballot” – and, if the voter complains, is given a provisional ballot to fill out, only the provisional ballot is mostly ignored when the robbed voter leaves. Sometimes provisional ballots are counted too, but so is the fraudulent mail-in one, so the real voter’s ballot is at best cancelled out. Here is an example of how that works in progress from the email of a Colorado friend who alerted one of my e-mail lists to this practice.

    Hey, I know this. I watched polls. Let me tell you, by the way, that year – 2012 – 1/3 of the people in my precinct in Colorado Springs ran into that. Our counterparts in Denver said 2/3 did.
     
    Which means that I guess dementia is rampant in Colorado. Coff. Because there’s no voter fraud, right.  That was, btw, the election in which the left eeked enough of a majority to then go full time vote by fraud. I mean mail.
     
    What happened – I’ve had people tell me no, that’s not what happens, but hell I was there, and I know how it was explained – is that these people got to fill a “provisional vote”. Later, the records would be examined, and if it was shown they really hadn’t voted before those votes would be counted.
     
    In other words, people are fobbed off. Even should their votes be counted – as some people insist they are – then they would count for ½ because there’s no way to retrieve votes already cast.
     
    This is why I say the left has been winning by fraud for several cycles already and the only reason Trump won is that they were so sure it would be a Hillary landslide they failed to manufacture enough votes.”

    Mail-in vote fraud occurs when the perpetrators obtain mail-in ballots, before they are sent to voters, from election officials who are part of the fraudulent vote conspiracy, or when for the same election officials simply give the perpetrators all the information needed to print their own fraudulent mail-in ballots and return envelopes, fill those out and mail them to the election postal box numbers/addresses. It is also possible for fraudsters to obtain the necessary information about voters online, but that requires far, far more work than if election officials give it to them.

    However fraud with mail-in votes is done, it is so easy to do that no other nation seems to allow mail-in votes at all, let alone the way it is being done in America.

    Note also that it is easier, and therefore more likely, for mail-in vote fraud to be targeted at all voters than just Republicans and independent voters. A lot of Democratic voters who choose to vote in person on Election Day may have polling place workers refuse to give them ballots because they have allegedly already voted by mail.

    The simplest and best way to keep your vote from being stolen in this way is to have your vote be designated the first received from you. This requires that you vote as early as possible, preferably in person so there is no question about your identity, and so the US Postal Service doesn’t delay or lose your mailed ballot (which was a major problem earlier this year, and seems to be happening now). Don’t wait for Election Day – vote as early as possible. As an example, October 5 (Monday) is the earliest people can vote in person in California. Do so in your state.

    If you do wait until election day to vote in person, a sure tip-off that your vote has been stolen will be a polling place worker refusing to give you a ballot because you allegedly have already voted. Don’t just walk away. Insist that you haven’t voted and demand that you be given a ballot. Don’t let them fob you off with a “Provisional” ballot. Insist on a real one. Make a screaming stink about it, and insist on speaking to a Republican poll watcher who will hopefully follow up on your problem, and add you to a list of names of people who have been denied ballots.

    But it would be better if you also volunteer as a Republican poll watcher at a polling place on election day so you can protect other voters from having their votes stolen. They’ll be easy to spot – a polling place worker will refuse to give a ballot to a prospective voter. Your county Republican Party will love to have more volunteer poll watchers, and they’ll give you a little training on, including on what to do when voters are denied ballots. The Trump re-election campaign and Republican Party are prepared for massive nationwide Democratic voter fraud, and need help documenting it as it happens.

    Do something about it yourself. Vote Early! Become a poll watcher!

    But the problem will remain. This is the first national election involving massive nation-wide vote fraud by a major party. That means a nation-wide political conspiracy, and my Colorado friend’s experience indicates it has been building for years. How can America remain a democracy when a large portion of the country rejects the core American, and democratic, value of free and fair elections?

     

    69 Responses to “Millions of 2020 Votes Will Be Stolen – How To Tell If Yours Is One”

    1. PenGun Says:

      “Mail-in ballots are so vulnerable to fraud that the United States seems to be the only country in the world which allows them.”

      Not at all. In Candaa anyone may vote by mail. if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons. Well perhaps that’s too harsh, but its not rocket science.

    2. Whatever Says:

      “Not at all. In Candaa anyone may vote by mail. if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons. ”

      You just re-elected Trudeau.

    3. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Pengun, the article points out that the Democrats have no interest in fraud-free mail-in voting. Vote fraud is the OBJECTIVE of the mail-in voting systems they have made law. The one possible exception is Utah.

    4. Tweeker Says:

      “Not at all. In Candaa anyone may vote by mail. if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons”
      That assumes the goal is an honest election,
      If the goal is fraud, the more broken the system the better.

    5. Ken Says:

      “In Candaa … you are morons”

      Heh.

    6. SDN Says:

      Yeah, vote as early as possible so the Democrats know how many dead voters to fill in.

    7. Christopher B Says:

      As Trent pointed out ‘vote by junk mail’, i.e. sending ballots to all registered voters is not the same as voting by requested absentee ballot.

      I’m mot surprised you can’t or won’t comprehend the difference.

    8. San Miguel Says:

      “Not at all. In Candaa anyone may vote by mail. if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons. Well perhaps that’s too harsh, but its not rocket science.”

      The point of the post is that mail-in ballots that are requested by an identified voter, such as an absentee ballot, are not generally amenable to election fraud and are perfectly legitimate and controllable. The mass mailing out of untraceable and uncontrollable ballots, to people and adresses on poorly maintained voter rolls, are vulnerable to massive voter fraud. See the difference, Candaa? Did you even try to understand the point? And what a surprise, the lefties are the ones looking to undermine the system with this brand new mass mailing strategy just a month or two before a national election.

      Now let the adults take care of the adult business, and you children can just go back to being grateful for the protection and economic benefit you receive from your geographical position next door to the greatest, richest, most powerful country in the history of the world.

    9. Nathan Redshield Says:

      I vote early, which in Mass. has been merged with the absentee process with its outer envelopes. Job reasons–my state work (transit vehicle counts for a state agency) now allows for work to be done on election day so it is no longer a day off and we have been worked all day on election day. But in the last several years the post office HAS been in an increasing habit of delaying my bill payments. I like mail delivery so I am loathe to move bill payment on-line but I’ve had to to protect myself. So I don’t trust mail-in voting and now I know why Canada elected Justin Trudeau. The worry is they didn’t have me seal the ballot envelope so if the ballot falls out it gets invalidated.

    10. PenGun Says:

      Its true San Miguel we have to live next to the most massive narcissist the world has ever seen, America. Its not easy.

    11. Gringo Says:

      I am going to my polling place on election day. If the polling place officials inform me that I have already voted, I am going to raise a stink.Loud.

    12. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Gringo, become a Republican poll watcher. That is the optimum solution.

    13. Mongo Says:

      Voting illegally is like taking a gigantic dump on the graves of the men who fought and died for democracy.
      Remind liberals of that, and remind them that a woman in Texas got 8 years for voter fraud.
      Ask them if they can handle years in the penitentiary and a felony conviction.

    14. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Mongo, vote fraud on this scale simply isn’t addressable by the criminal justice system. The concluding paragraph makes it pretty clear that America can’t gon on this way. The most likely outcome is a very bloody civil war (MANY millions of dead) and the exile of millions more of the losers.

    15. Sam Says:

      The Canadian person is lying.
      in Canada you can vote by mail for early voting or absentee but in each case you have to request the ballot.
      Also voting in person, you need ID with address , registration card and can only vote at your voting place that is listed on your card.

    16. Ron Robison Says:

      Canada has a population of 38 million. Might have something to do with their ability to manage mail-in ballots. Of course we have 50 states who act like 50 countries. Everyone has to do it their way which leads to opportunities for fraud.

    17. Laurel Says:

      Pengun, remember that anybody who voted for Trudeau does not get to call other people dopes.

      I am praying for all of you guys in the States, for serious electoral reform for you, and especially success for your President. He’s got some serious fans up here.

    18. Subotai Bahadur Says:

      “Tom Holsinger Says:
      October 5th, 2020 at 9:07 pm”

      That is putting it mildly. What most people do not comprehend, refuse to comprehend, is that there is no ‘time-out stopping point’ once faith in the system, and the acceptable method of government of a civil society, has been lost. Things go Hobbesian amazingly quickly returning to “the state of nature characterized by the ‘war of every man against every man,’ a constant and violent condition of competition in which each individual has a natural right to everything, regardless of the interests of others. Existence in the state of nature is, as Hobbes famously states, ‘solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short'”.

      We already are seeing that American levels of law enforcement will not maintain order in the face of deliberately corrupt government operating outside the law. We have seen that Eurasian levels of deadly imposed tyranny cannot guarantee the rule of those who view themselves as Übermenschen for more than a generation or so. In the absence of a social contract that includes >85-90% of the population, there will be war.

      Subotai Bahadur

    19. Alec Rawls Says:

      “…if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons.”

      Not morons, crooks. Not “can’t make a safe system,” Democrats don’t WANT a safe system.

      When CA passed a law allowing illegals to get drivers licenses the law also automatically registered all of these illegals to vote and automatically started sending them all ballots, ballot that have written on them in small print that the recipients are not allowed to fill out and submit the ballots unless they are legal citizens.

      The law also makes it illegal for anyone, even prosecutors, to ever investigate whether any non-citizen drivers license holder has ever voted. Registrars of voters are not allowed to release any of this information ever for any reason and will be criminally prosecuted if they ever do.

      California set up a system of guaranteed massive vote fraud and made it absolutely impossible for that fraud to ever be legally uncovered. As a result California no longer has a republican form of government, in violation of our Constitution’s Article IV section 4 guarantee to the citizens of every state that they shall have a (small “r”) republican form of government.

      The whole state of CA is one massive criminal conspiracy at this point.

    20. CSB Says:

      In Candaa we spell the country “Canada” — or at least we have for the 45 years I’ve lived here. Perhaps it would be different if I’d ever taken out citizenship — but when the people vote in a moron like Justin, I’m kinda glad I can’t participate. Sure do participate in paying taxes though, so I can get on a waiting list for that wonderful socialized medicine.

    21. B Says:

      “Not at all. In Candaa anyone may vote by mail. if you can’t set up a system that allows safe mail in ballots, you are morons.”

      Hey, dumbass Candaaian, I suppose it didn’t occur to you that one of our political parties insists on voting systems that are susceptible to fraud. The same reason we have states that don’t require an ID to vote and that we have states that allow the absolute travesty of ballot harvesting is the same reason why we have some states that permit porous mail-in voting. All of this idiocy can be laid directly at the feet of the Democrat Party. But being so well-informed about the USA by the CBC you probably think the Republican Party is the source of all ills.

    22. anthropic Says:

      “Its true San Miguel we have to live next to the most massive narcissist the world has ever seen, America. Its not easy.”

      Complain to Tibet about that and get back to us.

    23. Gavin Longmuir Says:

      Subotai: “What most people do not comprehend, refuse to comprehend, is that there is no ‘time-out stopping point’ once faith in the system, and the acceptable method of government of a civil society, has been lost.”

      Subotai is exactly right. And the main people who do not comprehend what happens when trust is lost are the Far Lefties who have taken over the once-proud Democrat Party. Once enough people come to believe that elections are being stolen, then there will be no respect for whatever laws & regulations those “elected” legislators try to impose, and society will crumble. Democrats will come to regret their “Not My President” meme.

      The situation is analogous to that facing an embezzler. She can steal a certain amount of money (carefully) and get away with it for a long time. But when she gets greedy and steals a lot, her theft becomes obvious and negative consequences (for her) are inevitable.

      There is good evidence that Illinois Democrats stole the Nixon vs. Kennedy presidential election — but the vote falsification was limited in what was clearly a tight election, and Nixon put Country ahead of Party. Further, Kennedy was a real Democrat who put America first, cut taxes, and helped strengthen the US economy and US jobs — in short, Kennedy was not the kind of anti-American corrupt Far Leftie who now dominates the sadly-diminished Democrat Party.

      Democrats will find that winning elections by fraud is a Pyrrhic victory — one which will bring suffering to everyone, especially themselves.

    24. MollyG Says:

      Your Colorado friend certainly sounds like Sarah Hoyt, and I suppose you would have said so had you thought it appropriate.

    25. sdlrjvh72pt9h Says:

      “This is the first national election involving massive nation-wide vote fraud by a major party. That means a nation-wide political conspiracy”

      A vote for Joe Biden is a vote to end democracy in the United States

    26. JaimeRoberto Says:

      One safeguard against fraud is checking the signature on the ballots, but it has never been explained how they can process millions of signatures. I assume it’s done by computer, but what’s the error rate.

      Also, my son is a college student and is registered in two places. I don’t think he would vote twice, but I’m not so sure that his former roommates won’t send in his other ballot.

    27. Christopher B Says:

      My understanding is that the signatures would probably only be checked in the case of an election with a margin so small that a few votes would determine the outcome. Some people have even stated that absentee and other irregular ballots aren’t even counted unless the margin at the end of counting regular ballots is smaller than their total.

    28. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Subbotai,

      I disagree that there will general anarchy, and that most fatalities will involve person v. person political violence. It will be quasi-genocide of people in major metropolitan areas via infrastructure attack, and the direct killers will be thirst, starvation and mass victim on victim violence by the victims trying to survive in ghastly situations, plus by residents of the areas urban refugees get to defending their families and property from the refugees.

      Ye olde “unorganized militia”, consisting of very small groups of rural white males with hunting rifles, and many individuals of same, shooting out the really big transformers (long lead time to manufacture) of long-distance power lines serving those major metropolitan areas. The interstate power grid will collapse and the effects will be very similar to massive EMP attacks blacking out major cities.

      Those simply cannot be defended against such attack by large numbers of motivated individuals – there aren’t enough cops and military personnel to do so. This will be an attrition campaign until the feds and power grid operators run out of replacement transformers for the national power grid. I suspect those are no longer produced in the US. This won’t happen fast, until the very end. It will be minor, then spotty, then some areas will be permanently blacked out, and then the grid will collapse. Only areas with relatively short distances to power plants, chiefly hydro-electric, will retain electric power.

      No power = no fuel for gas station fuel pumps or other transport and no import of food into major metropolitan areas, no pumping of potable water, no treatment of sewage, etc. I am very familiar with this given my Civil Defense background.

      There has already been a test of such an attack, about four years ago on a power station in the San Jose – Santa Clara area in the southern San Francisco Peninsula. This meme is already out on right-wing blogs – Trent sent me a link to one.

      And such a revolutionary attack will necessarily be headless, so negotiations with its perpetrators will be impossible. It won’t be turned off once it starts. It will only peter off as the “unorganized militia” decides (not are forced to) to stop.

      This is why I expect fatalities in the scores of millions when this happens. And IMO it will happen late in the first term of the next Democratic president. The collapse will start slow and intermittent, with plenty of warning so people with sense and mobility will get out, and gradually accelerate until it happens very, very fast at the end.

      The southern California major metropolitan area will be gone, and 20 million people live there (LA, Orange and San Diego counties). The Boston to Washington corridor will be gone.

    29. Subotai Bahadur Says:

      Tom, we actually are not that far apart. I agree with the tactics postulated and have some additional ones I have pondered. I started in writing umpty-ump years ago for military and naval journals and it helps me think to put it in that form. The Leftist urban areas, especially once they are isolated from the rest of the country, will make anarchy look like the formality of a Mass. But there will be a lesser form of anarchy in the rest of the country because supply lines will be failing, albeit not as fatally as in cities. And there will have to be the separation of the two or more nations that will come. Different groups moving through hostile territory are going to be most untidy. The urban Left will try to create a Socialist dictatorship. With every member of any ambition trying to take it over. That and they will be bloody hungry, thirsty, in the dark, and with no fuel or medical supplies. The non-urban areas, once they have the enemy out of their areas, share a ideology dating from Hobbes, Locke, and our own founding fathers. They will have an easier time of putting together a system of governance that has the consent of the governed . . . once they sort a few things out.

      We, of course, do not WANT this outcome. But it becomes more likely by the day.

      Subotai Bahadur

    30. Xennady Says:

      There is good evidence that Illinois Democrats stole the Nixon vs. Kennedy presidential election — but the vote falsification was limited in what was clearly a tight election, and Nixon put Country ahead of Party. Further, Kennedy was a real Democrat who put America first, cut taxes, and helped strengthen the US economy and US jobs — in short, Kennedy was not the kind of anti-American corrupt Far Leftie who now dominates the sadly-diminished Democrat Party.

      Quick comment here- I used to read a lot of political stuff. I remember a long time ago getting the strong impression that the idea that vote fraud gave Kennedy the election win was tinfoil nonsense that no serious person believed.

      This was circa 1980-90s, when I read it, certainly from commentary written years earlier.

      At some point later that tinfoil idea morphed into the conventional wisdom. Of course Kennedy stole the 1960 election, yuk yuk. Thanks Chicago! Thanks Mayor Daily!!

      I found this a jarring transition.

    31. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Subotai,

      Major metropolitan areas without electric power will be Hobbesian jungles once family integrity is destroyed, but their falls will be catastropic and horrifying. Consider the implications of no water save from rivers and streams, and the latter contaminated with typhoid, plus no food. The collapse period will see groups of parents doing whatever they have too, no matter what, to keep their children alive, and everyone else doing what they have to. IMO the population totals of the affected metropolitan areas will drop, during the final collapse period, from perhaps 60-65% of what they had been (because many families will run to rural areas, etc., first) to under 10% in about a month for each area. Less in San Diego and Orange counties of California, where it will take only a week. LA has gravity-fed water for months from reservoirs already filled and ready to go, due to earthquake preparations, and can last until the food runs out in two weeks.

      Basically major urban areas without electric power will cease to exist before the Revolution is over. We all rightly have no doubt who will “win”, such as the term will mean given that America will be over. But the country won’t be partitioned. Only one “side” will survive.

      This is why I said millions will die. Depending on how fast it takes the Democratic administration to surrender or be overthrown by a military coup, my wild-a**ed guestimate is about 40 million fatalities, +/- 20 million. With another 10-20 million being exiled afterwards, to Canada and Mexico, for political reasons.

    32. Gavin Longmuir Says:

      Xennady — Full disclosure, I have never done enough digging through primary sources to be sure about the allegation that Kennedy was handed an improper victory. Certainly, in the 1960s, there must have been many people who would have said automatically, without any investigation — This is America! That kind of thing does not happen here!

      But we have since had books like Robert Caro’s series on LBJ which makes a fairly convincing case that LBJ had earlier won election fraudulently. And maybe later, as people saw what was happening to that old America, the allegations about Kennedy could not be dismissed so easily as tinfoil nonsense.

      One thing is clear — Nixon was no Al Gore. Nixon stood down rather than put the country through the mess of a contested election. But when Nixon was later elected President, he disappointed us by creating the Environmental Protection Agency whereas Kennedy got the ball rolling on putting a Man on the Moon. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

    33. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Crunching some numbers to show that my scenario isn’t ridiculous:

      The Northeastern Megalopolis, aka Boston to Washington corridor, has about 50 million people according to Wikipedia. Assume a third of those get out before the final collapse. That leaves 32.5 million. Assume 10% of the pre-Revolution population survives in the Bos-Wash corridor. That’s 5 million. 32.5 million minus 5 million means 27.5 million people in the Bos-Wash corridor will die in the 30 days after the power goes out there.

      Now take the 20 million people who live in the southern California coastal counties of Los Angeles, Orange and San Diego. Assume a third of those get out. That leaves 13.3 million. Assume two million (10%) of the pre-Revolution population there are still alive after a month. That means 11.3 million dead there in the 30 days after the power goes out.

      32.5 million dead in the Bos-Wash corridor + 11.3 million dead in coastal southern California = 43.8 million.

      The two biggest lefty areas in America are also the two most vulnerable to the “shoot out the electric power transformers” attack I described. 40 million dead is not an unreasonable nation-wide ball-park estimate for this scenario.

      And I am aware that there are still some fossil-fuel power plants in the Bos-Wash corridor and southern California, though the lefties here are trying to get rid of the latter.

      This is not something anyone sane looks forward to. Hopefully warning of this will prevent it, such as by a crash program for 3D printing of the massive electric transformers required for long-distance power transmission, though I doubt such is possible. I was informed that the US no longer rewinds old transformers and instead ships those to China for the Chinese to do it.

      Knowing what might happen might save some lives.

    34. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Gavin,

      My recollection from having been politically aware then was that Chicago’s Mayor Daley stole Illinois from Nixon, while “Landslide” Lyndon Johnson stole Texas from Nixon. But that the Ohio GOP stole Ohio from Kennedy. And that Nixon figured the chances of him winning if he fought the cheating weren’t high enough to live with the damage the fight would do to the country regardless of who prevailed.

      So it wasn’t only Nixon being magnamious about it, though that was in truth a significant motivation for him. He also felt that his own side was dirty enough that his administration would be crippled if he won.

    35. Codex Says:

      If you live in a fraud-by-mail state, hand-deliver your ballot to a voting drop box (no, alternate – A blue business, or fake return address) outside a public library in a deep blue city.

      Otherwise, your ballot won’t make it through.

    36. MCS Says:

      There’s an assumption that goes through all the disaster porn above that should be examined. That’s that when everything goes sideways, there’s going to be somewhere nearby to escape to.

      A hundred, or really more, years ago, rural folk (some) drew their food from their smoke house, their root cellar, their mill. Now we (when I was living there) get it from the nearest Kroger or Wal-Mart just like you city folk. When my brother fed and slaughtered a steer, he kept the meat in a freezer run by electricity, just like you. The crops he grew were planted with diesel powered tractors that needed, from time to time, parts from the big smoke and of course fuel. Crops that were irrigated by water drawn by electric pumps, protected and fertilized by many different chemicals from many different places.

      For a while, it’ll depend on whether Mexico and Canada can hold their border, but only for a while.

    37. Gavin Longmuir Says:

      MCS: “There’s an assumption that goes through all the disaster porn above that should be examined. That’s that when everything goes sideways, there’s going to be somewhere nearby to escape to.”

      That is an excellent point. We also need to ponder what people are going to do when things start to go sideways.

      We have the example of the (Soros-funded?) weeks of riots in Portland & Seattle, where the Usual Suspects have created great damage but only in a limited area; most people in those cities & their suburbs did not head for the hills when the problems started. And we have the example of natural disasters like hurricanes, where resulting outbreaks of societal breakdown are mostly limited to certain easily-identified areas. Specialization in modern society has created potential failure modes, but it has also created a high degree of resilience. There is a lot of ruin in a nation, as Adam Smith reputedly said.

      It would be worth examining what happened in the Soviet Union when that government collapsed. I have never found a really clear analysis of this (Any suggestions would be welcome!), but here is what I have gleaned from various sources.

      There was political fragmentation, with countries leaving the Union even though the USSR had been deliberately designed to create inter–dependence between the member states. Within Russia, a fairly large number of areas where the local politicos were strong declared themselves to be “Autonomous Zones”, free from central control. It seems that most people in Communist Russia had “jobs”, even if they were not particularly productive. Those factories and businesses often provided services like apartments, schools, medical treatment for their workers, and seem to have provided a natural form of organization when the country went pear-shaped. Conditions for many people in the former Soviet Union became very difficult after the governmental collapse in 1991. But there was no widespread rioting or massive death tolls. Alomst 3 decades later, life in the former Soviet Union is much improved. Cities like Moscow & St. Petersburg are thriving. Pre-Lock Down Scam, life in those cities for most people was probably more comfortable than in places like London or Paris.

      Today’s situation in North America & Europe is different from that in the pre-collapse USSR, and our societal organizaiton may be more fragmented. But the recovery witnessed in the former USSR does give hope that here too there will be an eventual recovery from the inevitable collapses of Western governments.

    38. PenGun Says:

      Neither party cares about the American people. The problem for the GOP, is that Trump has just made that plain. It will cost him the election.

    39. Tom Holsinger Says:

      MCS,

      Note that I have 33-35% of the population of the Northeast Megalopolis and the three southern California coastal counties get out to anyplace else before the final blackout. The killers in my feared scenario are that the pumps in gasoline stations won’t work without electricity, and neither will the pumps delivering water to homes, businesses, schools, etc.

      At that point the road transportation system will crash. People trying to get out will be limited to the fuel already in their tanks. They’ll run anyway but at that point the roads will be overcrowded, slow, and cars will run out of gas on the roads and clog them. The clogged roads will prevent deliveries of food, and the lack of fuel in the affected cities will prevent food delivery trucks from refueling there, and drastically limit the trucks’ range. All this will affect southern California a lot more, and faster, than in the Northeast.

      Gavin,

      The Soviet Communist Pary’s collapse was of a parasitical overclass that only made things worse for everyone else. There was no societal crash.

    40. miguel cervantes Says:

      there’s also the element, that the nomenclatura became the oligarchs, you look at many of the top figures like berezovksy, they were bureaucrats in the ministries, some like deripaska were genuine businessmen, the siloviki came from the security services, with putin at the top, someone like primakov, the foreign minister and mfa dinosaur preceded putin,

      the establishment has presided over the deindustrialization of much of the country, to china and other venues, these long term expeditionary forces (forever war seems trite) this educational malpractice which trains a class of symbolic analysts full of mind arson,

    41. miguel cervantes Says:

      there does seems to be a ‘unlearning’ of lessons we thought had become crystal clear, out james q wilson’s ‘broken windows’ now we know there is a well funded fmr terrorist susan rosenberg, who is behind this semiotic attack, at least one wave of it, the invisible serf’s blog has tracked the category error, that flows from soviet era educational templates, basic understandings about the need for reliable energy, for regulation that doesnt unduly handicap small and medium sized business,

    42. MCS Says:

      I’ve thought about my earlier remarks. My apologies that they don’t relate to the original post, but I really can’t think of anything to add in terms of getting your vote counted.

      Some of you weren’t talking about the odd spot of urban unrest where you could drive until you found a Holiday Inn with a vacancy, you were talking apocalypse. Let’s see what’s in your go-bag.

      The first thing had better be a passport for your proposed country of refuge. Without that, none of the rest matters. Next are the keys to a plane capable of getting you there, preferably non stop. A charter won’t do and if your passport says New Zealand, it’s going to be a very expensive plane, even if you can work out fuel stops. I wouldn’t bet on your AmEx working, gold might work, but severe inflation would be expected, especially in this particular demographic. Carrying the necessary weight might greatly reduce cruising range. You’d have to work out a reason to expect both your plane and whatever crew were essential to be waiting for you. A private air strip in an obscure location might be advisable.

      If you’ve bought one of these bunker shares, the trip will be shorter and more “interesting” but no problem with immigration. Hope whoever’s running it is honest, going to court probably won’t be a viable option. If everything works out, you’ll find yourself occupying a very desirable target for the less provident and more ruthless for some considerable time. Better have very good security, good luck finding a reason for them to care about you and your’s.

    43. Mike K Says:

      In Arizona, a federal judge has ruled that “early voting” cannot take place until October 26. We will see how it goes. We know our polling place.

    44. OBloodyHell Says:

      }}} Pengun said: “Its true San Miguel we have to live next to the most massive narcissist the world has ever seen, America. Its not easy.”

      It’s soooo easy being an idiot troll, even a Canadian like Pengun can do it!!

    45. OBloodyHell Says:

      }}} Sam Says: The Canadian person is lying.

      Imagine my shock.

      It should be noted, it approaches zero as a limit faster than any other known curve in all of Mathematics, and is thus quite useful for Boundary Problems.

      :-9

    46. Gavin Longmuir Says:

      Tom H: “The Soviet Communist Pary’s collapse was of a parasitical overclass that only made things worse for everyone else.”

      We can agree on that. Now, compare the USSR’s parasitical overclass with the DC Swamp. A lot of similarities. The central government provides some useful services and a lot of sand-in-the-gears overhead.

      There are obviously a lot of differences between current Western society and the USSR — but there are similarities too. And the USSR is a historically-close example of governmental collapse. It is an opportunity to learn from a real world example.

    47. Trent Telenko Says:

      MCS,

      G-d forbid that Tom H’s scenario comes to pass, places that have electricity will have the gasoline to distribute food and other goods

      The distribution of food in the USA has three-to-four layers between producers and store retailers. See the following:

      – Farm/ranch
      – Grain Silo/stockyard (Pigs & Chicken slaughter is vertically integrated here)
      – Food processor/slaughter house (Beef, usually)
      – Wholesaler (Box stores like Walmart are their own wholesaler)

      By in large most of that supply chain is rural/exurban with a couple of exceptions in Chicago and the North East.

      This is a useful tool for looking at the food processor level in that supply chain.

      https://thefern.org/2020/04/mapping-covid-19-in-meat-and-food-processing-plants/

    48. Tom Holsinger Says:

      It doesn’t matter how much food is produced if it can’t be distributed to the people who need it. The road transportation system depends on distribution of fuel along the roads to operate, and the latter requires adequately clear roads. The road transportation system will be collapsed for weeks or months in large metropolitan areas without electricity because the pumps for gas stations won’t work without electricity, so millions of cars driven by people trying to get out will run out of fuel on the roads getting out and clog them.

      Those roads can be cleared of out of fuel and crashed vehicles eventually, but by then enough time will have generally elapsed that people still in the major metropolitan areas without electricity will have died of thirst, starvation, disease and violence.

      The degree of this in any given afflicted area will vary enormously, from complete societal collapse to survivable congestion with refugees. But there will be an enormous amount of dying, all of it horrible and slow.

      The key here is electricity. Areas with it will survive. I suspect most major metropolitan areas generate enough of their own electricity to survive, albeit with little productive economic activity. Those which don’t are ALL controlled by governments which are so lefty that they’re closing down all the powerplants which might keep them alive in this kind of emergency. THE MAJOR objective of the headless revolutionary insurgency I see coming will be to bring down the national power grid.

    49. MCS Says:

      It’s not pumping the gas that’s a problem. It’s refilling the tank when it’s empty. It’s operating the pipelines and refineries that fill the pipelines. Trucks only haul the gas the last mile and good luck finding a terminal that’s not in a major city. Food distribution warehouses tend to be on the edges of big cities but are fed by trucks now.

      There probably isn’t a city in the country over 50-100 thousand that generates enough power in limits to even charge their distribution network let alone function. No transmission network, no power. That goes double for rural areas. Just restarting a network after an outage takes a lot of power and a lot of coordination. Good luck finding a dispatch center not in a big city and, of course, it’s not even the center, it’s the people that run it and the all the linemen that act by direction.

      You can run, but you aren’t going to get anywhere that’s likely better if some of the most lurid of the prognostications come to pass. The locals may not be that welcoming either.

    50. David Foster Says:

      One infrastructure question that needs attention from the standpoint of resilience is the natural gas transmission and distribution network, and its mutual dependencies on the electrical grid. Obviously, a significant and increasing portion of electrical generation comes from nat gas, so, no gas, a lot less electricity. But the dependencies also run the other way. While a lot of the pumps that move gas along the pipelines are driven by reciprocating engines or turbines that are themselves gas-fired, not *all* of the pumping is like this, some of it is electrical….and that portion is increasing due to environmental complaints about noise.

    51. Brian Says:

      We could talk about nonsensical scenarios where tens of millions of Americans starve to death in the next few years, or concentrate on the fact that the social media speech suppression that has been planned since the day after the election in 2016 is in full swing, and no consequences are ever going to be paid for the federal intelligence agencies being weaponized, which means it’s going to happen 10x worse next time. Come on people.

    52. Tom Holsinger Says:

      MCS,

      There will be adequate warning of what is coming. IMO the process will take six months, and only be significant in the last month before permanent blackout of SOME major metropolitan areas. The grid operators will have moved out of potentially affected areas to more secure facilities well before things become serious.

      David, ditto for natural gas transmission facilities. IMO those will have priority for diesel generators and such.

    53. MCS Says:

      David,
      Natural gas compressor stations have redundancy. Electric compressors generally have combustion back up. Combustion powered compressors are usually multiple and individual compressors and entire stations can be bypassed with negligible to minor reductions in capacity. There is also route redundancy a lot of places.

      You can do a lot with a few properly placed valves. The gas industry learned a long time ago that they don’t get paid for gas that they can’t deliver. When was the last time you heard of a wide scale gas service interruption from equipment failure or a power outage?

      Gas fired electric plants can have backup in the form of either oil, LP gas or coal. A lot depends on availability of space.

      Things aren’t quite as brittle as some would have you believe. All the utilities spend a lot of time and money on resilience. A lot of the worst vulnerabilities in the electrical system are caused when various entities prevent the installation of things like transmission lines and sub stations because of aesthetics and other nimbyisims. There is a distinct upper limit on the amount of power that can be distributed underground.

    54. Tom Holsinger Says:

      MCS,

      Exactly what you said. It will be a process, not an event.

    55. Jim Ellis Says:

      Would it be OK to repost this? With attribution given of course.

    56. Tom Holsinger Says:

      Jim, yes. One of the points of publishing these articles is that they be reposted.

    57. MCS Says:

      A lot of natural gas is moved by reciprocating engines as big as a house and as old as I am. There are only certain places, especially rural, where you can plug in a 5-10,000 HP motor or maybe more than one. The only diesel gen sets are small (2-500KW) to provide backup power for controls and the air compressors that are used to start the big engines. Not much point in using diesel when there’s an unlimited supply of gas but you need something storable for a cold start. The big electric motors have their issues as well.

      A pipeline is simpler than an electric system, if you keep pushing gas in, it will eventually come out the other end. Maintaining flow is a little trickier but the pipeline itself forms a pretty big surge tank to even things out and there’s supposed to be enough margin to allow some failures.

    58. Gavin Longmuir Says:

      Something else to keep in mind when thinking about worst case scenarios — the Rule of Threes: a human being can last 3 minutes without air, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food. Water is the weak link in that chain. Even if gravity can keep fresh water coming for a while, once the waste-water treatment plants go down, disease will follow. When the Usual Suspects start to feel the consequences of their actions, will they pull back or will their attitudes harden?

      Economically, we know we are clearly headed for hyperinflation. When Germany had hyperinflation in the 1930s, it led to Hitler but not to societal collapse or massive deaths among German citizens before the war. Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe has apparently been very hard on the people, but has not resulted in massive death tolls. Most Venezuelans today are surviving the massive chaos there.

      Politically, there are serious problems in the US, but those do not necessarily translate into the collapse of society. The politically-driven American Civil War caused massive destruction and loss of life, especially in the South. However, if the North had simply shrugged and allowed the South to go its own way, that would not have happened. What choices will people make in any analogous future situation?

      We can only guess at what the consequences of various forms of the coming inevitable breakdown will be. It probably would help to look at real-world historical examples as a basis for constructing possible future scenarios.

    59. MCS Says:

      “There’s a lot of ruin in a nation.”-Adam Smith

      There are a good many million people that go to work every day to keep the wheels turning. The overwhelming majority will keep right on doing it. A lot of them are pretty smart and know a lot more than someone on the outside how their system works and a good many have devoted thought to what they might have to do some day.

      Do you think that the people that run water and sewer systems have no plans for functioning without electricity? I know first hand that they have lots of backup gen sets and occasion to do more than test them.

      It’ll take a lot more than a few soyboy wanabe thugs to do more than mildly inconvenience them.

      I believe the overwhelming majority of the officials tabulating ballots will count them as accurately as they can. There are 3,600 counties and thousands more at different levels that would have pull off widespread fraud under the eyes of Republicans. It happens some few places and can produce enough ballots to swing a close election. The answer is to make sure this one isn’t close. I don’t think it will be, time will tell.

      I’m not going to gratify the cretins in the MSM by working myself into a frenzy over their exaggerations and distortions. As I said, time will tell.

    60. David Foster Says:

      MCS…in your experience, is the pumping redundancy for natural gas only at the transmission line level, or also for local distribution to businesses and residences?

      I have a nat gas backup generator which is very nice and has never failed me, but I’ve wondered how likely it would be to keep working in a sustained electrical outage over a wide area.

    61. MCS Says:

      That’s the beauty of it. No need to pump it locally, it’s already at something like 1,000 PSI. It’s literally all down hill from there. End use pressure for household/small commercial is measured in inches of water, for a gen set, maybe 15 PSI (34 feet of water). I think main pressures are usually around 400 PSI. Mostly, all it takes are some valves and pressure regulators.

      Of course, your home heating system won’t work without electricity to run blowers or pumps and the control system.

      Water systems aren’t quite as easy. If you’re lucky there’s a tall hill where you can put some big storage tanks, otherwise, that’s what water towers do. Big systems need to be pumped to maintain pressure but that can be limited to a few places with backup. Sewer systems generally have backup at lift stations and treatment plants as well as holding capacity. It’s the older systems where the sanitary and storm sewers were combined that have problems when they are overwhelmed by storm run off.

    62. Sgt. Mom Says:

      Early voting opened today in Texas – we went past the library branch which is the usual early-voting location at about 9:15 this morning, and the line to get in the door went all the way out to the sidewalk, down the sidewalk to the back entry for staff parking, and looped around the staff parking lot.
      We have NEVER seen a crowd like that – usually, the line just goes from the front door out to the sidewalk, and it’s usually been a twenty-minute wait. One of the neighbors commenting on Next Door said that it was a six-hour wait today!

    63. Mike K Says:

      Back in the 70s, I took this scenario more seriously. At the time, I had a sailboat and plans to just go sailing with the family if things got out of hand. No more sailboat as I am too old to run one. We did get out of California, though.

      In the early 80s, during the gas shortage, I put a 440 gallon diesel tank in my side yard. I wonder if the present owners have ever found it ? I had all diesel cars and a tanker would fill it once a month.

    64. Brian Says:

      Sgt. Mom: seems kinda unlikely that many folks in your part of TX would stand in line for 6 hours to vote for Slow Joe, no?

    65. Sgt. Mom Says:

      We went that way again today at about 8:30 – and the line was even longer!

    66. MCS Says:

      Brian,
      I would like to believe so, but then I’m apparently an optimist.

      San Antonio is pretty blue so you have to factor that in. Not as bad as Travis County/Austin, it will be interesting to see how the returns from Bexar County (San Antonio) turn out. You wouldn’t think Democrats would be worried about their vote being stolen in a Democratic county.

    67. Trent Telenko Says:

      >>We have NEVER seen a crowd like that

      It was the same both mornings at the Dallas library I early vote at.

      My wife and I both voted at 6:50pm Tuesday & Wednesday because the lines were nothing just before poll close.

      I had to re-vote because the paper printer for my first vote spoiled my ballot and it took ~10 minutes going through the election judge to get a re-vote ballot. (The first machine I used had spoiled ballots a couple of times in the day and it was tagged for maintenance by the judge).

      I left my polling place at 7:03 pm through two locked doors.

    68. Mike K Says:

      A judge in Arizona has pushed early voting back to October 26. We have absentee ballots but will vote in person.

    69. Sgt. Mom Says:

      The Daughter Unit and I voted today – early voting in Texas will run all the way to the 30th. Even accounting for social distancing, the line was still pretty substantial. We have our registration cards and ID – they were checked against a computer roster, asked if we were still living at the address listed, we signed for a long paper strip of a ballot, which got fed into a computer with a touch screen. This is new. (Last time it was totally computer-recorded.) Went through the ballot on touch-screen, reviewed and hit ‘print’ to print it out for a second visual review – then fed into one of two ballot-boxes, which I think scanned the ballot to record.
      Someone trying to impersonate us to fraudulently vote would have to really work at it. That, and stand in line for better than an hour.

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