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  • Seth Barrett Tillman: An American Brexit Referendum: Should the United States continue to participate in NATO?

    Posted by Jonathan on September 15th, 2016 (All posts by )

    Let’s not kid ourselves, NATO, in its current structure, destabilizes the peace of Europe vis-a-vis Russia. Europe’s states will not pay for their own defense as long as those states can enjoy a free ride courtesy of the American tax payer and the American elite’s visions of Pax Americana. Those visions are long past their sell-by-date. If American participation in NATO ends, there is a good chance (albeit, not a sure thing) that the Europeans will cooperate and defend themselves. That’s a win-win. Good for America, and good for Europe.
     
    I propose a national referendum—an American Brexit—to settle the question. Let’s put the question to all of our people. Should the United States continue to participate in NATO?

    Read the whole thing.

     

    21 Responses to “Seth Barrett Tillman: An American Brexit Referendum: Should the United States continue to participate in NATO?

    1. Pouncer Says:

      A perhaps related point…

      The US hosts the UN at the HQ building in NYC. Perhaps a coalition of left and right would prefer the UN move to some other nation and city. The left might believe the US does not deserve the beautiful ideal and valuable diversity offered by the UN. The right might believe the UN does not deserve the safety and protection of the US. Both might agree that NYC has hosted too long, and the UN, like the Olympics, should be a “movable feast”.

      For various reasons a coalition might prefer the UN leave.

      On the other hand, the UN (funded to great extent by the US) has just spent a lot of money to renovate the NYC facility. Donald Trump, of all people, was invited to Congress at the early stage of that project to discuss the scope, the costs, the time lines, etc.

      Even if the UN is not subject to an “Exit” vote, it might be interesting to review Trump’s forecasts about the UN building project and compare his analysis to actual outcomes. And compare his abilities in crystal ball reading to predictions by Hillary, at roughly the same time, on any other issue she cares to discuss.

    2. PenGun Says:

      It seems SBT does not understand the purpose of NATO, as it is now that is. It’s to control Europe and it’s relations with Russia. Just Russia and Germany happily trading and evolving their economies together, is a huge threat to the dominance of the USA.

      This is why the Ukraine was knocked over after it refused to deepen it’s ties with NATO and the EU. As well, NATO has long fantasied about a Crimean base.

    3. Joe Wooten Says:

      Well past time Germany paid for her own defense. The US should have left NATO after the collapse of the USSR.

    4. Grurray Says:

      In the words of its first Secretary General Lord Ismay, the purpose of NATO was to “to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”

      What happens with Russia and Germany is anybody’s guess. Will they join forces? Will they fight each other? Will they do both?

      On the other hand, now that Britain is out, we certainly have lost a lot reason to stay. We should join in an Anglosphere alliance and use our common heritage to bolster our collective defenses against this growing uncertainty in the world.

      I vote for Nexit.

    5. Brian Says:

      No, we should not have such a referendum. The idea is silly and preposterous.

      Yes, we should transition out of NATO. It had a good run, but times change. Better to kill it on our own terms.

    6. Mike K Says:

      “Should the United States continue to participate in NATO?”

      No. Next question.

      Should the US get out of the UN ? Actually, I would prefer the UN get out of the US. The UN building might make a nice condo complex.

    7. Will Says:

      Equatorial Guinea would be a great locale for the UN. Great beaches, climate and culture. Great environment for the skulduggery that takes place over there on the river too. Witch-Doctors and scads of poisonous reptiles at hand to facilitate the deeds, without worry about diplomatic wrangling. Bodies decompose rapidly on the equator. No more trudging through snow drifts for the heat-loving goons that run the place. No more spats with the NYPD Traffic division.

      With luck, Trump will sit down with Orban and the Visegrad countries and come up with a plan. Western Europe has expendable cash for rapist resettlement, they can start buying their own equipment. Turkey? roll the dice.

    8. Bill Brandt Says:

      Seth makes a lot of assumptions that the Europeans will arm themselves rather than try to seek accommodation with Russia. On the other hand it is also true there are a lot of freeloaders now

      I think it was a mistake even talking about admission of the Ukraine and Georgia-it was just a provocation to Russia

      Summary: the basic premise is still there but we need to make adjustments

    9. Ginny Says:

      Isn’t the real question, what will we do when Europe breaks into wars. Surely the combination of unassimilated terrorists within and Russia already expanding its reach into Europe indicates that the future is not likely to be serene there. I always figured we were there for the same reasons we stationed troops across the world – to make sure, by our presence and our willingness to stand there, that we wouldn’t tolerate bullying and encroachments. Are we willing to let Europe tear itself apart if that is what happens (and given their long history, this long peace from 1945 is not something on which we should base predictions for the future) and listen to it on cable news but send no one?

      I don’t know enough but am somewhat apathetic – as backups we appear (from comments I’ve heard repeatedly from Europeans) to have let them drift into first irresponsibility and then self-righteousness. It is all great and fine to be for a phony peace when you know someone else will pay the price when war starts. I’ve heard enough about America’s flaws and the whole European Union’s unwillingness to value in any meaningful way the principles that came from European ideas and were embodied and fought for here. What would be our purpose? Still, it seems to me NATO was conceived so that the boomer generation didn’t have to fight in Europe – as their parents and their grandparents did. .

    10. Bill Brandt Says:

      BTW this portion tickled me a bit:

      …..The United States is not needed to keep the peace between France and Germany. And the Germans have the people to do it—they just imported a million new future (German and European) citizens.

      I guess he is assuming this group of people will assimilate into German society and work.

      That’s a big assumption and by far not a foregone conclusion. Will they be a stabilizing or unstabilizing influence?

    11. Mrs. Davis Says:

      Europe is currently suffering an unarmed invasion. We are doing nothing about it. Europe is currently failing to reproduce its population. We can do nothing about it. Within the life time of my grandchildren, I expect Germany to be riven by a civil war between islamists and secularists. I expect the islamists to prevail. Then Russia to become involved to roll back the islamist takeover. With whom will we side?

    12. Seth Says:

      Bill Brandt Says:
      September 16th, 2016 at 12:40 am
      BTW this portion tickled me a bit:

      …..The United States is not needed to keep the peace between France and Germany. And the Germans have the people to do it—they just imported a million new future (German and European) citizens.

      I guess [TILLMAN] is assuming this group of people will assimilate into German society and work.

      ———–

      Bill,

      I have made no such assumption. But if the elected German government are willing to assume it to be true, who are you and I to disagree?
      It is there country, not mine.

      Seth

    13. dearieme Says:

      No need to expel the UN from the US. Just nationalise their real estate in New York and offer them a new home in Detroit. Next to the new SCOTUS building.

    14. Mike K Says:

      I expect that, as the Islamists take over Germany, the Germans will decline as an industrial power. If we get a Trump presidency, we may find a return to pre-1965 immigration rules and we could see a German immigration spike resembling the 19th century.

      There was a time, and it was during the time of Lincoln and the Republican Party’s rise, when Germans made a major demographic in the US. My uncle told me that prior to World War I, there were pictures of the Kaiser in Chicago public schools. St Louis was a major center of German culture.

      European immigration from France and Germany, fleeing Islamist civil war, could revitalize the US.

      Russia is collapsing demographically. China is one generation from doing the same. I see a lot of Chinese immigrants joining the US military. The US Army now has language schools for them.

      Interesting times and times that may not resemble the Democrats wishes for the future.

    15. Grurray Says:

      There’s still a small remnant of those German immigrants in street names and parks and their big old church St. Alphonsus that anchors North Lincoln Ave. They had a “gymnastic society” to promote physical fitness among their children, and a few of the old buildings are still standing. I used to work out at a health club that was in the Lincoln Turnverein building.

      Those Germans were fleeing the fallout of unification. Decentralized fragmentation was always the natural state of Middle Europe. The Holy Roman Empire lasted for a thousand years because it was a patchwork confederacy in a perpetual state of disarray. The emperor was elected and could also be kicked out office. It was managed chaos, but it worked.

      Modern efforts to unite Europe, whether militarily or peacefully or economically, always end badly.

    16. Bill Brandt Says:

      @Seth

      Like our own Barack Obama deciding to seek accommodation with Iran there is no plurality in the German government in regards to this migrant issue.

      We have yet to see the long term affects of this.

    17. Pouncer Says:

      It might be a good idea to at least start construction on the new home before moving out of the old one.

      So, should the “Anglosphere’s Armed Alliance” include India?

    18. Ginny Says:

      Re: Germany & taking it really off topic:
      think of Pennsylvania during the Revolutionary War. Although I think NE had a large % of Germans in the late 19th century, the language didn’t stay on as it does in TX (as in Fredericksburg) etc. as Sarge Mom knows more than I. But the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church next to our house (and the dominant church in our village) didn’t stop preaching in German until WWI (when it stopped for obvious reasons). One of the sad stories that gives insight: in the retirement home a man was saddened he could no longer communicate with his wife of 50 years as her mind had gone back to the time when she spoke only German.

    19. CapitalistRoader Says:

      German was still the largest US ancestry according to the 2010 census. Mexican would have probably been #2 instead of #4 if all had been counted.

    20. Mike K Says:

      A change in immigration law would probably be a high priority for a Trump Administration.

      My friends in Tucson waited years to win a lottery for immigration visas. They had 60,000 Euros in savings to start a business. He said he wouldhave no chance to own his own business in Germany. That was long before the “migrant” crisis.

    21. Will Says:

      And of course, there’s this:

      http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/16/londons-muslim-mayor-tells-u-s-audience-immigrants-shouldnt-assimilate/

      Anyone following “immigration” for the last fifty years or so, knows the deal, but it’s good to hear it straight from the beast’s lips.

      And this:

      http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/16/london-mayor-sadiq-khan-ties-farrakhan-hed-rather-forget/

      And, anyone who’s been privy to THAT game knows also that non-assimilation is key as well, and has been a tact for at least the same period of time. We’ve been told for years that the two entities are separate and unrelated just as we’re continuously reminded that the animals in Syria are the JV team.

      In my opinion they most certainly all are indeed related. I’ve no idea what will become of the good people of Western Europe and the US, but maybe, just maybe, this last in the trifecta will begin an avalanche:

      http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/09/16/black-dallas-cop-sues-black-lives-matter-soros-inciting-race-war/