Heather McDonald discusses the choices in job-rich (& self-reliant fly over) Idaho. My syllabus argues if students find themselves not doing the readings, they should probably rethink taking my class. Our lives are enriched by scholarship at certain ponts – at others, it can be a distraction from living. Perhaps lectures are difficult to follow, I observe, because of dehydration after a night in Northgate’s bars. But I’m serious, offering a couple of anecdotes – like a student whose 48 hours of F’s in their teens were followed by life; he came back in his forties, ending with a Ph.D. Unusual, but not all that rare. Neither those bars nor classes slept through are useful ways to spend years of intensity, energy, growth. And, even at our bargain prices, this wastes money.
A student this semester said that paragraph may have led to drops. Well, okay, the purpose is to wake them up – so they don’t drift through another class, getting an untransferable grade. I counseled too many students on their fourth semester of such work.
He laughed; with a full time job and what would seem a full-time disability, he did quite well; an A not as high, perhaps, as the women who had been in the service, had children, helped support husbands that sat beside him. Returning veterans are disproportionately A students (and interesting). Of course, life experience is garlic to the vampires of theory who have sucked the life out of the humanities. But they bring their own life to the works and help it breathe for themselves and their classmates.
Often, liberal arts education is criticized here. Perhaps rightly. Still a course of chronological readings, where the context is given in class after class and interpretations need to be put on paper and defended does offer a challenge. (Not that I would suggest debt is a good idea. My children, unsurprisingly, took the liberal arts route; but none left owing a cent. We make our choices – theirs were for state schools, work, and some AP and jc hours.)
When we asked students to read more, to master works that stretched them – we may have offered an alternative to the oil fields. Now, well, not so much. But if a flaw is the unserious way we treat education, the system’s virtue is its offer of second chances. Oil fields develop grit, the army develops grit, raising children does; when a 40 year old models the self-discipline they’ve learned through experience in a classroom they model grit.
This diversity – which truly enriches a class – is one that the New York Times seems to not even imagine, let alone encourage. (Though many of the commentors understand.)
13 thoughts on “Maturity Makes the Student (and the student debt-free)”
And the NYT finds the prospect of young people getting a good job out of High School to be scary..
But if a flaw is the unserious way we treat education, the system’s virtue is its offer of second chances.
My taking nine years to get a BS degree, with 30 credits of Fs and 30 credits of As, is testament to that.
“When anyone with a heartbeat and no money thinks they can easily graduate from an Ivy League school in a worthless major without having to experience difficulty, the problem becomes not one of class divide but entitlement. An elite private education and a $100,000 job is no one’s right, and not everyone is destined for an upper-class lifestyle.”
Gringo – a student said first time around she’d gotten one B (the rest were F’s); after marriage, baby, life this time around in 3 semesters she’d also only gotten one B – the rest were A’s. I was a version of that; I grew up late in about every way. I don’t trust a counselor’s idea of “life experience” but believe its one criteria we need. Most of my friends were unusually young – early entrants, skipped grades. All honors kids, a number dropped out. It wasn’t intelligence, it was maturity.
Idaho, Montana, what’s the fracking difference?
My daughter found pretty much the same thing, when she went back to college for a couple of years after eight years in the Marines. The adult students seemed to be the only ones who were serious about it, the recent high school grads were there to party and screw around.
Our high schools teach students to take a bus to school and to wait in their seat for the last bell so that they can take a bus home. Attendance is forced down their throats.
Veterans who go to school do so because they want to learn something true or get a credential. They know how to suspend disbelief and memorize the stuff that is taught.
Ginny, I taught evening classes at a big state school for ten years. My favorite students, and the ones most likely to prosper, had the life experience you describe: a middle-aged Army nurse, a safety foreman for a construction firm, failed athletes and musicians, former party-kids turned serious at 26 (or 50), women who’ve escaped abusive marriages–many of them taking English classes at night because they sensed there was a dimension of their lives they’d neglected.
When your classroom is populated by fully developed adults, you learn early on that you’re there to teach the material and impose a bit of discipline, not preach your own world-view (which would be hilariously futile anyway). I’ve long suspected that most English profs would benefit from teaching adults who already know how (or whether) the material in a literature course fits into their lives.
IIRC, Plato thought no one should study philosophy before the age of 30.
Sorry about the Idaho substitution for Montana.
Many of these concepts were discussed by Robert Persig in this masterwork
Notably this part:
Phædrus’ argument for the abolition of the degree-and- grading system produced a nonplussed or negative reaction in all but a few students at first, since it seemed, on first judgment, to destroy the whole University system. One student laid it wide open when she said with complete candor, “Of course you can’t eliminate the degree and grading system. After all, that’s what we’re here for.”
She spoke the complete truth. The idea that the majority of students attend a university for an education independent of the degree and grades is a little hypocrisy everyone is happier not to expose. Occasionally some students do arrive for an education but rote and the mechanical nature of the institution soon converts them to a less idealistic attitude.
The demonstrator was an argument that elimination of grades and degrees would destroy this hypocrisy. Rather than deal with generalities it dealt with the specific career of an imaginary student who more or less typified what was found in the classroom, a student completely conditioned to work for a grade rather than for the knowledge the grade was supposed to represent.
Such a student, the demonstrator hypothesized, would go to his first class, get his first assignment and probably do it out of habit. He might go to his second and third as well. But eventually the novelty of the course would wear off and, because his academic life was not his only life, the pressure of other obligations or desires would create circumstances where he just would not be able to get an assignment in.
Since there was no degree or grading system he would incur no penalty for this. Subsequent lectures which presumed he’d completed the assignment might be a little more difficult to understand, however, and this difficulty, in turn, might weaken his interest to a point where the next assignment, which he would find quite hard, would also be dropped. Again no penalty.
In time his weaker and weaker understanding of what the lectures were about would make it more and more difficult for him to pay attention in class. Eventually he would see he wasn’t learning much; and facing the continual pressure of outside obligations, he would stop studying, feel guilty about this and stop attending class. Again, no penalty would be attached.
But what had happened? The student, with no hard feelings on anybody’s part, would have flunked himself out. Good! This is what should have happened. He wasn’t there for a real education in the first place and had no real business there at all. A large amount of money and effort had been saved and there would be no stigma of failure and ruin to haunt him the rest of his life. No bridges had been burned.
The student’s biggest problem was a slave mentality which had been built into him by years of carrot-and- whip grading, a mule mentality which said, “If you don’t whip me, I won’t work.” He didn’t get whipped. He didn’t work. And the cart of civilization, which he supposedly was being trained to pull, was just going to have to creak along a little slower without him.
This is a tragedy, however, only if you presume that the cart of civilization, “the system,” is pulled by mules. This is a common, vocational, “location” point of view, but it’s not the Church attitude.
The Church attitude is that civilization, or “the system” or “society” or whatever you want to call it, is best served not by mules but by free men. The purpose of abolishing grades and degrees is not to punish mules or to get rid of them but to provide an environment in which that mule can turn into a free man.
The hypothetical student, still a mule, would drift around for a while. He would get another kind of education quite as valuable as the one he’d abandoned, in what used to be called the “school of hard knocks.” Instead of wasting money and time as a high-status mule, he would now have to get a job as a low-status mule, maybe as a mechanic. Actually his real status would go up. He would be making a contribution for a change. Maybe that’s what he would do for the rest of his life. Maybe he’d found his level. But don’t count on it.
In time…six months; five years, perhaps…a change could easily begin to take place. He would become less and less satisfied with a kind of dumb, day-to-day shopwork. His creative intelligence, stifled by too much theory and too many grades in college, would now become reawakened by the boredom of the shop. Thousands of hours of frustrating mechanical problems would have made him more interested in machine design. He would like to design machinery himself. He’d think he could do a better job. He would try modifying a few engines, meet with success, look for more success, but feel blocked because he didn’t have the theoretical information. He would discover that when before he felt stupid because of his lack of interest in theoretical information, he’d now find a brand of theoretical information which he’d have a lot of respect for, namely, mechanical engineering.
So he would come back to our degreeless and gradeless school, but with a difference. He’d no longer be a grade-motivated person. He’d be a knowledge-motivated person. He would need no external pushing to learn. His push would come from inside. He’d be a free man. He wouldn’t need a lot of discipline to shape him up. In fact, if the instructors assigned him were slacking on the job he would be likely to shape them up by asking rude questions. He’d be there to learn something, would be paying to learn something and they’d better come up with it.
Motivation of this sort, once it catches hold, is a ferocious force, and in the gradeless, degreeless institution where our student would find himself, he wouldn’t stop with rote engineering information. Physics and mathematics were going to come within his sphere of interest because he’d see he needed them. Metallurgy and electrical engineering would come up for attention. And, in the process of intellectual maturing that these abstract studies gave him, he would he likely to branch out into other theoretical areas that weren’t directly related to machines but had become a part of a newer larger goal. This larger goal wouldn’t be the imitation of education in Universities today, glossed over and concealed by grades and degrees that give the appearance of something happening when, in fact, almost nothing is going on. It would be the real thing.
Such was Phædrus’ demonstrator, his unpopular argument, and he worked on it all quarter long, building it up and modifying it, arguing for it, defending it. All quarter long papers would go back to the students with comments but no grades, although the grades were entered in a book.
As I said before, at first almost everyone was sort of nonplussed. The majority probably figured they were stuck with some idealist who thought removal of grades would make them happier and thus work harder, when it was obvious that without grades everyone would just loaf. Many of the students with A records in previous quarters were contemptuous and angry at first, but because of their acquired self-discipline went ahead and did the work anyway. The B students and high-C students missed some of the early assignments or turned in sloppy work. Many of the low-C and D students didn’t even show up for class. At this time another teacher asked him what he was going to do about this lack of response.
“Outwait them,” he said.
His lack of harshness puzzled the students at first, then made them suspicious. Some began to ask sarcastic questions. These received soft answers and the lectures and speeches proceeded as usual, except with no grades.
Then a hoped-for phenomenon began. During the third or fourth week some of the A students began to get nervous and started to turn in superb work and hang around after class with questions that fished for some indication as to how they were doing. The B and high-C students began to notice this and work a little and bring up the quality of their papers to a more usual level. The low C, D and future F’s began to show up for class just to see what was going on.
After midquarter an even more hoped-for phenomenon took place. The A-rated students lost their nervousness and became active participants in everything that went on with a friendliness that was uncommon in a grade-getting class. At this point the B and C students were in a panic, and turned in stuff that looked as though they’d spent hours of painstaking work on it. The D’s and F’s turned in satisfactory assignments.
In the final weeks of the quarter, a time when normally everyone knows what his grade will be and just sits back half asleep, Phædrus was getting a kind of class participation that made other teachers take notice. The B’s and C’s had joined the A’s in friendly free-for-all discussion that made the class seem like a successful party. Only the D’s and F’s sat frozen in their chairs, in a complete internal panic.
The phenomenon of relaxation and friendliness was explained later by a couple of students who told him, “A lot of us got together outside of class to try to figure out how to beat this system. Everyone decided the best way was just to figure you were going to fail and then go ahead and do what you could anyway. Then you start to relax. Otherwise you go out of your mind!”
The students added that once you got used to it it wasn’t so bad, you were more interested in the subject matter, but repeated that it wasn’t easy to get used to.
At the end of the quarter the students were asked to write an essay evaluating the system. None of them knew at the time of writing what his or her grade would be. Fifty-four percent opposed it. Thirty-seven percent favored it. Nine percent were neutral.
On the basis of one man, one vote, the system was very unpopular. The majority of students definitely wanted their grades as they went along. But when Phædrus broke down the returns according to the grades that were in his book…and the grades were not out of line with grades predicted by previous classes and entrance evaluations…another story was told. The A students were 2 to 1 in favor of the system. The B and C students were evenly divided. And the D’s and F’s were unanimously opposed!
This surprising result supported a hunch he had had for a long time: that the brighter, more serious students were the least desirous of grades, possibly because they were more interested in the subject matter of the course, whereas the dull or lazy students were the most desirous of grades, possibly because grades told them if they were getting by.
My general issue with liberal arts is that they aren’t very difficult relative to what you can learn on your own. I took liberal arts classes at a big state school (as a business major) and generally blew the doors off the liberal arts students on that track. It was sad.
I’m sure at Ivy league schools it is pretty intense competition for an A. Most Ivy Leaguers are very well connected which is how you mostly get a job anyways. You can marry someone with connections and / or go on to grad school. The odds that a random non-connected person just gets in to an ivy league school and then graduates is very low. I’m sure it happens, but is also very rare and not typical.
Comments are closed.