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  • Roots of the Western Hostility Toward Israel

    Posted by David Foster on March 15th, 2014 (All posts by )

    …some thoughts from Brendan O’Neill:

    ‘The lesson many in the West took from the Holocaust is that nationalism is bad; the message Jews took from it is that nationalism is necessary.’

    This cuts to the heart of today’s fashionable disdain for little Israel. What many Westerners seem to find most nauseating is that Israel is cocky, confident and committed to preserving its national sovereign rights against all-comers. In short, it’s a lot like we used to be before relativism and anti-modernism. I think that Israel reminds us of our older selves, our pre-EU, pre-green days, when we, too, believed in borders, sovereignty, progress, growth.

    Now that it’s de rigueur in the right-thinking sections of western society to be post–nationalist and multicultural, to be fashionably uncertain about one’s national identity, the sight of a border-fortifying state offends and outrages us. In the words of George Gilder, author of The Israel Test, Israel is now hated more for its virtues than for its political or militaristic vices. It’s hated for remaining devoted to ‘freedom and capitalism’ when we’re all supposed to be snooty about such things.

    If Israel is unofficially being made into a pariah state, it isn’t because of its foreignness, or even necessarily its Jewishness, but rather because it is too western for our liking. We loathe it because we loathe ourselves.

    Read the whole thing.

    I have often observed that, in the United States, there is a very high overlap between the set of people who hate Israel and the set of people who spell “America” with a “k”.

     

     

    58 Responses to “Roots of the Western Hostility Toward Israel”

    1. MikeK Says:

      Israel also committed the mortal sin of rejecting a Socialist government and adopting capitalism under Netanyahu.

    2. pst314 Says:

      “Israel also committed the mortal sin of rejecting a Socialist government”

      That’s right, and the sin precedes Netanyahu: As more and more Israelis abandoned the socialist Kibbutz life in favor of free enterprise and private achievement, Western leftists became increasingly angry with Israel as having betrayed their socialist fantasies. And so Israel became illegitimate in their eyes. I am certain that the Western left would still love Israel if it had remained thoroughly socialist, even if it were the genocidal state that they pretend that it is.

    3. Jonathan Says:

      Israel also won wars. Defeat, failure and death are safe and morally acceptable because you can show sympathy for the victims. Europeans produce beautiful encomia to dead Jews. But self-defense (especially pre-emptive attack to forestall certain aggression), victory, decisive use of force to prevail against odds raise moral qualms in a certain type of person.

      Maybe the Jews will become more popular now that they have oil and gas.

    4. MikeK Says:

      If only the Sudetan and East Prussia Germans had had the Palestinians PR skills ! Maybe they would still be blowing up things 70 years later. Instead, they got on with their lives, sometimes in Australia, and became good citizens. No UN relief organizations with lifetime sinecures, I guess.

      The Spectator seems to have an article viewing limit of zero.

    5. Ken Hoop Says:

      Thanks for conceding the US, the most sickly philosemitic philo-Zionist country in the world, is no longer Western.

      But you might continue to ask yourself, why are the Boxers and Feinsteins and a host of other typical Democrats multicultural on every issue but that
      concerning American subsidization of Israel’s oppressive, rabbinical law-ruled nation?

      Wherein they turn into far right nationalists?

      And boobus Americanus, including “Christian Zionist” cultists ignore that it is illegal for a Christian to attempt to convert a Jew in Israel?
      And Israel’s “Law of Return” welcomes all Jews in the world, including Jewish atheists, but excepts Jewish converts to Christianity, whom it labels
      “ex-Jews.”

      Neverthelss there are growing numbers of American conservaitves that resent thigns like Israel’s fifth column here creating lies which drive us into
      unwinnable wars.

      http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whose-war/

    6. MikeK Says:

      “Neverthelss there are growing numbers of American conservaitves that resent thigns like Israel’s fifth column here creating lies which drive us into
      unwinnable wars.”

      How would you know ?

    7. djf Says:

      The article considerably overstates Israel’s self-confidence and belief in “freedom” and “capitalism.” There is no lack of post-modern self-hatred in Israel, as any perusal of its leading newspapers, Haaretz, will show. But the author is correct that Israel is hated in the West simply for being a Western state based on ethnic nationalism. In the eyes of the Western intelligentsia, it can only redeem itself by renouncing its Jewish character (which is actually pretty minimal), i.e., by becoming a binational “democratic” state incorporating the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank and whatever Palestinian “refugees” wish to return from abroad. This would quickly turn the surviving entity into a non-Western despotism, in which Jews (and probably Christians) could not survive.

    8. Orthodoc Says:

      To ken hoop,

      Thanks for the fifth column smear.

      As a rebuttal, we’ve been around for six thousand years. We outlasted the Egyptians, the Romans, the Middle Ages, the nazis, and we will outlast you and your cheap ignorant anti semitism.

      Now go back under your rock.

    9. MikeK Says:

      “We charge that a cabal of polemicists and public officials seek to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America’s interests. ”

      What you mean “we” white man ? Pat Buchanan is a majority of one. I also subscribe to American Conservative but I am selective in what I read so I missed that one.

      I forget when Saddam invaded Israel or when al Qeada attacked Israel with airliners full of passengers. I missed the attack on the Israeli ship, the Cole. How was I to know that all these attacks were on Israel when I thought they were on the US ? Major Hassan attacked a bunch of soldiers at Fort Hood in Israel. The Muslim limo driver attacked El Al’s ticket counter at LAX. How could I have missed that ? The embassy hostages in 1979 must have been Israeli. I missed that one, too.

      Buchanan was a good speechwriter for Reagan.

      Buchanan wrote that it was impossible for 850,000 Jews to be killed by diesel exhaust fed into the gas chamber at Treblinka. Such statements have led to accusations that he has helped legitimize Holocaust denial. When George Will challenged him about it on TV, Buchanan failed to reply.

      Oh, that Pat Buchanan !

      Well, now I remember. That’s the guy who ran for president and got, what ? Twelve votes ?

      How was “his” magazine doing before Ron Unz financed it ?

      In its April 20, 2009, issue TAC announced that “[t]he economic crisis is exacting a toll on the publishing world, and The American Conservative has not been spared” and that without “a major new infusion of capital”, it would print its final edition on May 7, 2009. It subsequently returned to publication, but as a monthly

    10. RonaldF Says:

      Israel has survived. That alone is a miracle. They could have easily taken over Egypt. Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Unfortunately, they want a simple place to live, with nobody chanting -“Death to the Jews”. Is this so hard?

    11. Anonymous Says:

      When the intelligentsia starts from “Communism is the Future,” it isn’t too hard to arrive at “nationalism is bad.” Stupid premises, stupid conclusion.

      But if you start from reality….

    12. dearieme Says:

      “we’ve been around for six thousand years”: do you think that sort of triumphalism is wise? Especially since it’s pretty obviously bogus, since it’s based on pretending that the early books of the Old Testament are history.

    13. Grurray Says:

      Whether or not you believe that the Israelites were really God’s chosen people or not, there’s one very good earthly reason for Israel’s dominance over the ages, and that is the advantages of terrain and interior lines.

      As long as Israel is not divided, they can fight off any invasion from the south or west and, usually, the northwest. Even some combination from those directions can be defended as long as they can react faster and the enemy isn’t too coordinated. The achilles heal is the exposed northern border. If there’s coordination from the south and the north, then it’s lights out.

      This is why a divided Lebanon is the best thing that ever happened to Israel. In fact, when looking at the state of affairs of all its neighbors Israel has never been so secure in its modern existence.

    14. MikeK Says:

      Dearieme, Apparently, you believe in spontaneous generation.

      “Especially since it’s pretty obviously bogus, since it’s based on pretending that the early books of the Old Testament are history.”

      So, The Iliad and Odyssey are bogus? Anything prior to the age of history is bogus ? I am not a literal Bible believer but it is pretty clear that those books are history of a form. Herodotus has some “bogus” history but is largely true. Schliemann found Troy and Knossus when it was believed that Homer was reciting, or was himself, a myth.

      I don’t believe the earth was created in six days, not do I believe the Creation myths except as traditions like those of American Indians. However, it is pretty clear that Jews were a tribe well before recorded history. They didn’t just appear in eastern Europe like a new species.

      You sound just a bit like a Palestinian mumbling to himself.

    15. djf Says:

      I have no idea where Orthodoc got the idea that the “Jews” have been around for 6,000 years. Nobody I know of argues that the patriarchal stories are actual history, as opposed to legends about the origin of the Israelite tribes; in any event, if there is some reality behind those stories, that reality is supposed to have occurred around 1,800 BCE, or 3,800 years ago. The Exodus (whatever unrecoverable actual events are behind the biblical story, that is) is estimated to have occurred around 1,300 BCE, which is only 3,300 years ago. King David is estimated to have lived around 1000 BCE, or 3000 years ago. Assuming that the historical accounts in the Books of Samuel and Kings bear some relation to actual events (which they probably do), “Jewish” history (“Jewish” referring specifically to the Kingdom of Judah, from which all subsequent Jews descend, as opposed to the Kingdom of Israel, which incorporated the ten lost tribes) extends back about 3,000 years.

    16. Ken Hoop Says:

      http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

      http://www.amazon.com/JEWISH-HISTORY-RELIGION-Weight-Thousand/dp/B004RXFJNY

      Two important books.

      Bin Laden and many documents of the hijackers made clear, Ron Paul was exactly right when he said 9-11-2001 was blowback for the past decades of
      American intervention in the Middle East, the worst feature among many thereof being support for Israel.

    17. dearieme Says:

      “You sound just a bit like a Palestinian mumbling to himself.” Do grow up.

    18. dearieme Says:

      “Dearieme, Apparently, you believe in spontaneous generation.” I have no idea when a few Canaanite tribes adopted the cult of Yahweh and started to view themselves as accordingly distinct from their neighbours. I doubt whether anyone else does either. Some time before the Babylonian Exile, no doubt, but how long before? Dunno. But I do know that lashing together folk-tales, bits of old holy writing and, no doubt, sheer invention does not constitute writing history.

      I saw lately that the usual accounts of something as recent as Muslim Andalusia are now suspect because of archaeological discoveries – accounts that are less than a thousand years old. And someone asks me to believe stuff that purports to be about a period extending back to six thousand years ago? Phooey!

    19. PenGun Says:

      How soon you forget. The problem many people have with Israel is that they cleansed Israel with threats, fire and sword. An ethnic cleansing of an entire nation, no matter how primitive it may have been, is a great crime.

      It seems Israel would just like the Palestinians to go away or die. It seems Israel is just waiting to grab the entire area to the river, after people forget enough.

      Ain’t gonna happen. Make a deal halfwits.

    20. Michael Hiteshew Says:

      >>But I do know that lashing together folk-tales, bits of old holy writing and, no doubt, sheer invention does not constitute writing history.

      Oh, I dunno. Archeologists do it all the time, and they call it history. And sometimes all they’re working from is pot shards, wall paintings and rotted bits of architecture. From that they reconstruct whole civilizations.

      I read a fascinating thesis that was turned into an article for Smithsonian magazine about fifteen years ago. Starting from the story Jason and the Argonauts, the author’s premise was that the story was a dimly remembered and highly embellished Greek cultural memory of Bronze Age warriors carrying out seaborne raids on gold mines along the coast of the Black Sea.

      I imagine to a large degree the Old Testament falls into that category.

    21. The Objective Historian Says:

      No. Israel’s legitimacy is questioned because it exists based on violence and terrorism yet denies violence and terrorism on the part of those who would restore the region to a pre-Israel condition. Israel exists because Jews ILLEGALLY ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW IMMIGRATED TO THE REGION from 1918-1948 and then violently removed Arabs whilst declaring itself independent; and that status quo has been established by the threat of violence on the part of the USA and the West.

      Israel exists due to ethnic cleansing and any hostility toward it is based on that.

      That Israel is “democratic” [AFTER THE ETHNIC CLEANSING] and capitalist is irrelevant.

    22. Michael Hiteshew Says:

      ‘Objective’ You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Inigo Montoya

      TOH, just curious. Where do you live and how was that land ownership decided and when?

    23. MikeK Says:

      “Do grow up.”

      Oh, I am 76 and it is a bit late.

      “No. Israel’s legitimacy is questioned because it exists based on violence and terrorism yet denies violence and terrorism on the part of those who would restore the region to a pre-Israel condition.”

      So, the Romans did not do any violence in Israel ? Those people they dispersed were Palestinians ? Who knew ? So Masada was a Palestinian event ?

      “Israel exists due to ethnic cleansing and any hostility toward it is based on that.”

      Well, let’s just say “an attempted ethnic cleaning.” After all, the Arabs announced they were about to annihilate the Jewish residents of the Mandate as the British left.

      There was this thing called The UN which tried to split the baby by dividing the Mandate between Arab and Jew. The Jews accepted and the Arabs didn’t. Be careful starting wars you lose. Or are you still hoping for a Nazi win?

    24. ErisGuy Says:

      After all descendants of Germanic peoples leave Europe to the peoples they conquered, we’ll worry about Israel and the peoples they conquered.

    25. Richard Cranium Says:

      “The problem many people have with Israel is that they cleansed Israel with threats, fire and sword.”

      And how was Canada settled?

    26. IGotBupkis, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." Says:

      }}} Neverthelss there are growing numbers of American conservaitves that resent thigns like Israel’s fifth column here creating lies which drive us into
      unwinnable wars.

      Ken stop smearing conservatives with your idiotic conspiracy-theorist brush. Go find a name for your ilk which doesn’t infect true conservative/libertarians with the kind of bile you center your identities on. I’d suggest “Rectalorifi” as a starting point. But feel free to run with it.

    27. IGotBupkis, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." Says:

      }}} Bin Laden and many documents of the hijackers made clear, Ron Paul was exactly right when he said 9-11-2001 was blowback for the past decades of
      American intervention in the Middle East, the worst feature among many thereof being support for Israel.

      Ron Paul is so clueless he managed to be connected for two decades to the rabid anti-semitic, “racially biased”(at best) Lew Rockwell and company. No one gave a crap until he actually got some traction. Now his son is taking over, and that’s the only reason that there’s any chance of a Paul ever becoming a significant force in politics… because he can deny the connections his father could never have avoided being pilloried with.

      Small-l libertarianism is a valuable political position. Large-L Libertarians tend to be isolationist loonies who haven’t yet figured out that what worked for the USA in 1850s geopolitics might not work in 2010 geopolitics… I repeat, they’re loonies, as you yourself seem to show.

      Anyone who thinks 911 was “blowback” for prior american policies is an idiot who doesn’t understand human nature sufficiently to realize that, as top dog, we are AUTOMATICALLY a target. The notion that we are the reasons we got attacked is just as stupid and ludicrous as people with those imbecilic “Coexist” bumper stickers, who don’t grasp that as long as the “C” group isn’t interested in “Coexistence” but dominance, it ain’t gonna happen. We are a nation, an ideology, a concept, which is inherently anathema to fundamentalist Islam. Our basic IDEALS, our essential MEMES, are an affront to their central religious tenets. So we are going to get attacked no matter HOW we treat them. Giving in to them only suggests weakness, not generosity.

      Enough said.

    28. Dr. Weevil Says:

      Number of Arabs (Muslim, Christians, and Jews) in Israel: 1,658,000 (20.7%).

      Number of Jews in Gaza: 0 (0.0%).

      Probability that anyone who accuses Israel of ‘ethnic cleansing’ is a liar, a fool, a fanatic, a bigot, or some combination of the four: 99.9%.

    29. Dr. Weevil Says:

      Sorry, the first parenthesis should be “Muslims, Christians, and Druze”. Duh!

    30. David Foster Says:

      Here’s an interesting letter from an 83-year-old Iraqi Jew, in which he responds to the assertion (in a book published by the Presbyterian Church USA) in which it is stated that prior to the growth of Zionism, Middle Eastern Jews had a “history of largely harmonious integration and acculturation in their host countries.” The letter writer, Joe Samuels, blows this theory away:

      “First there was never a continuous peaceful coexistence between Muslim and Jews. There was existence of the Jews in Arab lands for thousands of years, but we lived as second-class citizen dhimmis. We had to pay bribes regularly and take abuse without seeking justice. For example when a Jewish girl was raped, when a Muslim customer didn’t pay my father for merchandise he bought, or when a Muslim murdered a Jew, we wouldn’t dare seek justice for fear of the threat of retaliation.”

      …and describes his own experiences:

      “Here are some examples of how us Arab Jews lived in harmony with our hosts: I survived the Farhud of 1941 — a violent “pogrom” when Iraqi Muslims, incited by Nazi Germany, took to the streets, destroyed the Jewish quarter and killed 180 Jewish men, women and children. I was 11 years old. Google Farhud or read Edwin Black’s book “The Farhud”. The cause of the Farhud, wasn’t Zionism. The Farhud was purely an anti-Jewish act. At 14, I was chased by two Muslim youths with a knife for stopping them from molesting my neighbor’s teenage daughter in broad daylight.”

      Mr Samuels also notes that it is strange that the Presbyterian Church USA…which presumably still represents itself as a Christian institution…does not show more concern about the oppressions now being visited upon Christians in the Middle East and in other Muslim countries.

      RTWT

    31. MikeK Says:

      An accident of geology resulted in much of our concern with the middle east. OIl was discovered in the US in Pennsylvania in 1859, which provided a substitute for whale oil used in lamps. Henry Ford, and others like him, brought our interest in oil to a major concern, in spite of Tom Edison. I wonder how many US school children know his name ?

      The British converted their fleet from coal to oil in 1911, a huge gamble by Winston Churchill, first sea lord. They established Aden as a major naval base.

      Oil offered many benefits. It had double the thermal content of coal so that boilers could be smaller and ships could travel twice as far. Greater speed was possible, and oil burned with less smoke so the fleet would not reveal its presence as quickly. Oil could be stored in tanks anywhere, allowing more efficient design of ships, and it could be transferred through pipes without reliance on stokers, reducing manning. Refueling at sea was feasible, which provided greater flexibility.

      The problem was that it was necessary to insure access to oil.

      It judged that ample supplies of oil existed but urged that a storage capacity be built in peacetime to ensure sufficiency in time of war.
      The final step was finding a source, and toward that end a delegation went to the Persian Gulf to examine oil fields. Two companies were the likely choice of supply: the powerful Royal Dutch Shell Group and smaller Anglo-Persian Oil Company. After considerable maneuvering, and largely through Churchill’s encouragement, the government decided to maintain competition in the oil industry and ensure supplies by investing directly in Anglo-Persian.

      In 1945, Roosevelt met with King ibn Saud to agree on oil supplies.

      Roosevelt spelled out this promise in a letter to King Abdel Aziz Ibn Saud on April 5, 1945:

      “Your Majesty will recall that on previous occasions I communicated to you the attitude of the American Government toward Palestine and made clear our desire that no decision be taken with respect to the basic situation in that country without full consultation with both Arabs and Jews. … [D]uring our recent conversation I assured you that I would take no action, in my capacity as Chief of the Executive Branch of this Government, which might prove hostile to the Arab people.”

      Israel had nothing to do with it. It was Jews that the Arabs wanted suppressed. The initial battles of Jews with Arabs were fought without American support, except recognition in the UN.

      The meeting took place in February 1945 aboard the USS Quincy, a destroyer, in the Great Bitter Lake of the Suez Canal, where Roosevelt stopped on his way home from the Yalta Conference with Churchill and Stalin.

      An argument could be made that Roosevelt was severely impaired, as he was at Yalta. He died two months later. Truman was operating in full knowledge of the Holocaust, an event that brought Israel into existence. Had Hitler left the Jews in Europe alone, and they wanted to be left alone, the Arabs might still control the area of Israel.

    32. Ken Hoop Says:

      http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Start.htm

      proof of Christian-Muslim comity among the historic Palestinian people.

      Whatever the truth of the Old Testament, Western metaphysical Tradition -Catholic, Lutheran and Calvinist–saw the Jews losing Chosen status upon rejecting
      Christ, not to mention collaborating in His Crucifixion. Not until the 19th century did heretical sects amounting to anything dissect the NT from any other perspective.

      Then the Darbyites, “dispensationalists” began to wrench OT passages from their time period and apply them to the present–as if the Abrahamic Covenant (land promise)
      could still be in effect when the only manner of obedience left to the Jew (prerequisite to God keeping his conditional promises in the OT) was conversion to Christianity.

      Of course historian Brenner shows the Zionists worked with the Nazis for mutual aims–getting Jews out of Germany.

    33. Grurray Says:

      “Mr Samuels also notes that it is strange that the Presbyterian Church USA…which presumably still represents itself as a Christian institution…does not show more concern about the oppressions now being visited upon Christians in the Middle East and in other Muslim countries”

      The PCUSA is one of the looniest liberal religious organizations in the country. They aren’t the only Presbyterian denomination in the US, but they are definitely the furthest out in left field.

      Aside from that there’s another connection between Presbyterians and Arabs. Starting with the Second Great Awakening in the early 19th century, they have a long history of missionary activity in that part of the world. They established schools and seminaries in the surrounding countries, some of which are still running today. Lasting that long is evidence that they managed to assimilate somewhat in the social and political order.

      Every country except for Israel, that is.
      A rivalry with the Roman Catholics in Jerusalem prevented them from establishing any long term presence there.

      As a result, now their orientation is naturally closer towards Arabs then Jews.

      However, The whole thing about defending Catholic orders from Zionist oppression has got to be a cynical joke. There’s little common ground officially between the two, if any at all.

    34. David Foster Says:

      Grurray…”defending Catholic orders from Zionist oppression”

      I’m lost…where was that mentioned?

    35. MikeK Says:

      “Of course historian Brenner shows the Zionists worked with the Nazis for mutual aims–getting Jews out of Germany.”

      Who ? You are really off in Stormfront territory now.

    36. Sgt. Mom Says:

      Ummm … and the British and American Kindertrasport groups also worked with the Nazis to get Jewish children out of Germany and Austria. By that logic, Ken – they were Nazi collaborators also.

      Nice try. But no.

    37. RonaldF Says:

      I don’t go in much for biblical prophecy; however, the irrational hatred for Jews and Israel has to be seen (really seen) to be believed. Stephen fricking Hawking favored sanctioning Israel. Would somebody on the other side of this debate please tell me how the violence would end other than a complete annihilation of all Jews and Israel?
      Let’s see – Return to 48 borders. That won’t solve anything.
      – A Palestinian State – ( Well they would have to be armed with the latest weapons to ward off Israel).
      – A right of return. Well, if all the states in the region will agree to the return of all its emigrants – meh – OK.
      – A Constitutional right for all people and minorities to be endowed by their Creator with the rights of life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness – well, when all nations in the area agree to this then it is a start. Until then all peace talks are done in vain.

    38. Bill Brandt Says:

      Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East – unless you want to consider Iraq (which seems to be a mess). This hatred seems to be historically recent as i remember the adulation so many had for Israel after the ’67 and ’73 wars.

    39. Ken Hoop Says:

      http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/notice.htm

      Hardly Stormfront less they have turned Marxist.

      Israel democratic?
      Arabs, Palestinians, are restricted from owning or renting property in large areas of “Israel.” That’s “democratic?”

    40. ErisGuy Says:

      We should praise Israel for re-taking the Holy Land from Moslem invaders.

      I hope Israel is more successful than the First Crusade. Deus Vult!

      The Moslem natives of Israel should be treated as the Christians, Copts, and Hindus were treated by Moslem invaders in past centuries: second-class citizens, taxed excessively, etc. (Turnabout is fair play; retribution is fair play; reciprocity is fair play. I approve of fairness.)

      The Dome of the Rock should be treated like the Hagia Sophia: closed for worship and open only as a museum.

      No mosques should be allowed to be constructed outside Dar al-Islam.

      All lands occupied by Islam since 634 should be re-claimed for Christianity.

      “Arabs, Palestinians, are restricted from owning or renting property in large areas of ‘Israel.’ That’s ‘democratic?’”

      Yes, it is democratic socialism. Similar laws exist in Mexico, another socialist state. In Canada, a portion of entertainment is required to have ‘Canadian content;’ and, this, too, is democratic socialism. If you hate socialism so much, denounce it elsewhere besides Israel. Calling for Obama’s overthrow and the destruction of the EU(SSR) would be good start.

    41. Gringo Says:

      Ken Hoop Says:

      proof of Christian-Muslim comity among the historic Palestinian people…

      I knew a Christian Arab, from the West Bank, who had come to the US for graduate study before the Six Day War. His brother was already working in the US. Their father had told his children- this was before the Six Day War- to get out of the West Bank. The reason for leaving home, his father told his children, was that as Christians they would always be passed over for promotion. As the father worked as a civil servant in the Jordanian-administered West Bank, he knew full well how Muslim overlords treated Christians in the West Bank.

    42. Ken Hoop Says:

      Sell your propaganda elsewhere, grungego.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi

      More on the historic hostility

      http://pauleisen.blogspot.com/2014/03/this-appeared-in-ghastly-guardian.html

      http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/the-banality-of-the-guardian-of-judea.html

    43. Ken Hoop Says:

      Why is erisgeek praising Israel for taking land he then wants Israel to turn over to Christians, as it is part of the once conquered land which he depicts.)
      (Answer: because he’s stupid, and egregiously naieve for believing Israel would do so or self-contradictory for then sanctioning a war against Israel to
      retake it.)

      This last stupidity is confirmed by his comparing the largest recipient of US taxpayer’s foreign aid and the nation which for which the US fought the unwinnable
      and costly three trillion dollar Iraq War for to Canada,

    44. Sgt. Mom Says:

      Lovely polite manners you got there, Mr. Hoop. You are an example to us all.

    45. Grurray Says:

      “More on the historic hostility”

      What hostility?

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/israeli-christians-seek-integration-including-army-service/2014/03/14/b3c41634-ab7f-11e3-b8ca-197ef3568958_story.html

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-christian-arabs-recognized-as-own-minority/

    46. David fostet Says:

      Ken Hoop:

      Maintain some basic level of courtesy or go away.

    47. MikeK Says:

      Don’t encourage him. That sets them off and that is what they are seeking. Stormfront is readily available. I even provided him the URL.

    48. Grurray Says:

      Just to clear something up.

      Half the Christians in Israel don’t necessarily even identify themselves as Arabs, are oriented more to the West, and follow the Pope.

      A vocal minority, which includes Ashrawi, doesn’t like the Pope at all and are deeply suspicious of the West. As a result, they get along great with the PCUSA, Ivy League socialists, and other liberal anti-colonialists.

      So there is no monolithic “Arab” Christian group. Only different groups of varying beliefs, and Ashrawi and other activists of her ilk only speak for a few of them.

    49. Jonathan Says:

      MikeK:

      I don’t think it’s bad to encourage him. Let him make his best arguments and other people will make theirs. We shall see whose arguments hold up under scrutiny. So far he isn’t doing too well. And of course this discussion will be available to all via Google into the foreseeable future. Ken may influence people in ways he didn’t intend.

      Of course he should be civil and is foolish not to, but that’s a different matter.

    50. MikeK Says:

      There were terrorist Christians, like Habash but I have known quite a few Christians who simply emigrated when the early “troubles” began. Many are successful doctors and other professionals. I don’t think they think of themselves as Arabs or even Palestinians. I certainly wouldn’t want to identify with those fools and thugs.

      I wrote a letter several years ago and helped the son of a Physician in this area to get into medical school. They had a big party to celebrate his acceptance and I was invited. That was where I saw the girls demonstrating their belly dancing they had been learning. That alone told me they were Christian.

    51. Grurray Says:

      A lot of radicals came out of American University in Beirut. In the 60s and 70s it was like Berkeley on the Mediterranean.
      Originally, the school was founded by Presbyterian Dispensationalists in the 1800s, incidentally.

    52. MikeK Says:

      “A lot of radicals came out of American University in Beirut.”

      So true and it was later destroyed by those radicals kidnapping members of the faculty. Finally, they killed Malcolm Kerr and that ended the university.

      feeling a sense of calling to the job, the Kerrs decided to go to Beirut.” He accepted the position, serving as President for seventeen months.[5] On January 18, 1984, he was shot and killed by two gunmen outside his office; he was 52. A telephone call from Islamic Jihad later claimed responsibility.[6] News of his sudden death, another tragic event in the Lebanese civil war, appeared world-wide in the media

    53. Ken Hoop Says:

      Yes of course. The Christian percentage of Palestinians has declined markedly since circa 1960, due to Israeli oppression and (post) “Christian” America’s support of Israel giving them an unjustifiable but understandable bad rep among many Muslims in the area. Ditto Iraqi Christians.

      Thank God and Allah, a more Christian Russia is now standing in for Christian Arab interests in the region, as Israeli leaders admit they just now consider
      Hezbollah, Syrian Baathism, and Iranian Shi-ism a stronger threat than militant Sunnism, and co=operate with Saudia and the US to try and overthrow Assad
      (unsuccessful) so better to remove Iran’s regime (also won’t happen.)

    54. Grurray Says:

      The Christian percentage of Palestinians has declined markedly since circa 1960, due to Israeli oppression

      I doubt it. They’re far better off than if they lived in the surrounding Arab countries, unless they think getting their churches bombed and heads cut off is an ideal situation.
      They’re certainly far better off than they were before Israel was founded when in the waning days of the Ottoman Empire they were frequently the subject of mass exterminations.

      Also, I just noticed way up the page in my post on Israel’s natural defenses that a correction is in order. It’s the East and NE that are naturally buffered by desert and narrow passes, not the west. Aside from tourists to the beaches, no one is expecting any kind of amphibious assault along the coast.
      I must have been thinking of defending Chicago from an invasion from Rockford. Far fetched perhaps, but I’m not ruling anything out in this state.

    55. Jonathan Says:

      Israel has always had significant Christian and Muslim populations. That hasn’t changed, and as someone pointed out above those populations are thriving. What has changed is that the Christian % of the West Bank population has declined substantially since Israel relinquished substantial control over that area to the Palestinians themselves.

    56. MikeK Says:

      “What has changed is that the Christian % of the West Bank population has declined substantially since Israel relinquished substantial control over that area to the Palestinians themselves.”

      That goes back to the post-1948 exodus of Christians. I first met some Palestinians who ran a liquor store near the USC campus. They were named Awad. Since they ran a liquor store, I doubt they were Muslim but I was oblivious about that then.

      The traditional Christian areas were in what is now the West Bank. Bethlehem is a good example of a Christian town that has been decimated by the PLO and its adherents.

    57. Gringo Says:

      Ken Hoop: proof of Christian-Muslim comity among the historic Palestinian people…

      My reply @March 19th, 2014 at 11:48 am

      I knew a Christian Arab, from the West Bank, who had come to the US for graduate study before the Six Day War. His brother was already working in the US. Their father had told his children- this was before the Six Day War- to get out of the West Bank. The reason for leaving home, his father told his children, was that as Christians they would always be passed over for promotion. As the father worked as a civil servant in the Jordanian-administered West Bank, he knew full well how Muslim overlords treated Christians in the West Bank.

      Ken Hoop @ March 19th, 2014 at 2:53 pm :Sell your propaganda elsewhere, grungego.
      grungego?

      I merely relayed what I heard a Palestinian Christian say. Here is another Palestinian Christian speaking:Bethlehem Looks Hopefully To Future”

      Christmas 2009 looks to be the calmest, brightest and the most prosperous in a decade for residents of the troubled Palestinian city of Bethlehem, the historic birthplace of Jesus.

      But as one scratches the surface of political stability, law and order and economic growth, which the Palestinian Authority has deservedly earned for its efforts in recent years, a starker reality emerges of the city’s dwindling Christian minority subjected to Muslim intimidation, political marginalization and a fear for its continuing survival….
      Palestinian officials minimize Bethlehem’s ethnic and cultural tensions. …
      But Samir Qumsieh, the founding managing director of Al Mahad Nativity television station in neighboring Beit Sahur, and a Christian affairs researcher, says that Bethlehem’s socio-economically better off Christians are afraid publicly to protest their persecution and the Churches refrain from intervening. Today, through continuing emigration to the West, Bethlehem’s Christians have dwindled to 12 per cent of the population. This compares to the 98 percent of the city’s population, which they constituted in 1948. Their declining numbers are not entirely due to Israel’s 40 years of occupation.

      The main reasons for their flight from Bethlehem, says Qumsieyeh, is the covert Muslim racism, gang beatings, thuggery, exclusion from government posts and an organized land mafia aimed at stealing their agricultural and urban property.

      “Christians don’t see a future here for themselves, their children or grandchildren,” says Qumsieh. “Soon there won’t be any left to maintain preserve the holy sites.”

      He wryly adds that “God is angry with this country because he was crucified here.”

      Incidentally, there is a connection by marriage between Samir Qumsieh and the patriarch I quoted above. Different statements nearly half century apart by Christians living in the West Bank about Christians and Muslims on the West Bank, and pretty much in agreement.

    58. MikeK Says:

      Here is an interesting sidelight on the lies of Mr Hoop. It’s about the massacre of Christians by Muslims in the middle east.

      Written by a Coptic Christian.