Well, this has been a festival of tantrums, has it not? What with ISIS/ISIL/Whatever is now huffing and puffing, threatening to blow our Christmas cottage down, and to execute President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. Might have some luck with some sub-normally-intelligent specimen of Muslim humanity with delusions of adequacy walking into a public place with a badly-constructed pipe-bomb, but looking on the most recent fearless lone-wolf jihadi warrior, who only managed to semi-eviscerate himself in trying to blow up … which reminds me, have the usual suspects begun winging on about the anti-Muslim backlash which, miraculously, never seems to descend? I’ve been sick as a dog all week with a seasonal cold, so it might have actually happened, and I never noticed. Meanwhile, the Palestinians and their fellow-traveler-symps in the Western world have declared another day of rage with regard to President Trump following through on the ever-so-tentative concept agreed upon by how many previous administrations – that the US embassy in Israel should be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
Cue the day of pique, anger, rage, frenzy, furor, indignation, and bluster … any day which ends in ‘y’ will suit for the pathetic Palestinians, exploited by other Arab nations for seventy years. Look, Pallies, this is what happens when you and your badly-chosen Arab allies lose wars repeatedly, persistently and without fail pick the wrong side in a conflict, choose thuggish leaders who take the sweet, sweet internationally-donated lolly and stash it in a Swiss bank account… and then turn around and blame your self-inflicted woes on the nearest handy target. Nope, sorry – the well of sympathy in me towards the Poor Persecuted Palestinians went dry sometime around 9/11, or possibly when in the depths of one or another of the intifadas – committing, enabling, excusing all sorts of terrorist atrocities – their spokes-feeb took a breath and whined that everyone in the West regarded the Pallies as terrorists. There is that concept concerning cause and effect, ya know. Gaza could have been a garden and beach-leisure spot, cheerfully raking in Israeli tourist dollars over the last seventy years, but no … better to marinate in poisonous resentment. Again – this is what happens when you a) pick bad allies, b) lose wars, and c) blame everyone else but yourselves.
Meanwhile, the Pervnado churns on and on and on, with the latest accused MCP being Russell Simmons. Has any powerful male figure in the national news media, music, the movies, or any other establishment not been a complete pig when it comes to conduct, professional or otherwise with women; women he worked with, interviewed, or who had careers which they hoped he would enable through being nice to him, or at least not slapping him into the next county for demanding sexual services? Boundaries, ladies and gentlemen – are nice things to have, loudly to publicize and faithfully to observe. Note that no one has been snickering at VP Mike Pence lately, for being a woman-hating prude, in never yet being alone with a woman not his wife.
And finally, kudos to Sarah Huckabee Saunders, she of the thankless job of daily wrangling the White House press corps – a body which for the most part increasingly resembles a class of bitchy middle-school mean girls, with her as their homeroom teacher. Looks like a darned nice pecan pie too. A note to April Ryan, and Rosie O’Donnell, too – a pecan pie is not that hard to make, even if you make the crust from scratch.
(Note: A Fifth of Luna City is now up in both paperback and Kindle ebook. Lone Star Glory is, as of yet, only available in Kindle – the paperback version won’t be up until around the end of the year.)
The difference I see between ISIS and the Palis is that ISIS wreaks havoc and destruction throughout the middle east, and the Palis wreak destruction upon themselves…with the help and encouragement of their kleptocrat “leaders”.
Eh, Sam – the Pallies have been forced to dial it back of late, but time was when they were quite the international terror threat. ‘Specially when they hooked up with rabid Euro-lefties.
Wow. The poor Palestinians. Robbed of their land, ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel. And crapped on, by all the supporters of the Jewish establishment.
The present situation should give Bibi pause, but no, he’s going ahead with his alliance with Saudis. Now I don’t think Bibi is dumb, misguided perhaps, but the Saudis he’s allying with are. Now I want a state for the Palestinians, it’s the least the International community can do after all their prevarications. As well failing to do this sets Israel on the path for wider domination of all of Israel, which is the actual goal.
This will lead to a war the Israelis can not win. That will drag the US in. Is this something you want?
the poor Palestinians
You’re consistent in your misunderstanding, I’ll give you that.
The Palestinian complaint of being displaced from their land by law-breaking zionists isn’t entirely dissimilar to white Americans complaining of being displaced from their land by law-breaking Hispanics.
Darn – I had a bet with my daughter than Penny would be the first commenter, tasking me with my insufficient sympathy over the poor Pallies.
Who are an invented people, being either Egyptian on one side, and Jordanian on the other. The international community has been doing their best for them for seventy years, with the result that they are worse off than ever. That takes a real gift.
Peggy Noonan, a columnist I have had ebbs and flows with, had a wonderful column a few days ago on the latest news and sexual harassment. And unfortunately since the WSJ is a paywall, I’ll find a part that seemed pertinent to me: (talking before on what abortion and “the pill” have done to our society)
“Once you separate sex from its seriousness, once you separate it from its life-changing, life-giving potential, men will come to see it as just another want, a desire like any other,” Noonan wrote on Nov. 23 in the opinion section of the Wall Street Journal.
“Once they think that, then they’ll see sexual violations as less serious, less charged, less full of weight. They’ll be more able to rationalize. It’s only petty theft, a pack of chewing gum on the counter, and I took it.”
I suppose that is a good portion to debate, as sexual harassment has been around long before the pill, but I think these 2 things exacerbated it.
As far as the Palestinians and their “day of rage” – meh.
They have been their own worst enemy.
I didn’t expect a 21st century in which Israel would fear that Germany would not return or protect the Dead Sea Scrolls is not one that, as Instapundit remarks, I’d hoped for.
This was a great post – but it could have gone on for thousands of words. There’s the belief that the tax bill is Armageddon. And that Trump should resign. I’m not sure anyone wants to become the kind of country where as many of the ex-officials have been locked up as, say, Hannity wants – but the arguments that this is all a distraction from Trump’s allegiance to Putin is also bizarre, if it means more understatement than over.
And regarding the locking up – if our government acts like a banana republic do we actually prove we aren’t by not prosecuting that government as is done in banana republics when the opposition takes the reigns. This seems to me not a trivial question.
“The international community has been doing their best for them for seventy years, with the result that they are worse off than ever. That takes a real gift.”
You don’t see the irony? You know, “we are here from the government and we are here to help”.
Oh well. They people there were cleansed from the land they had been living on for generations. The history is quite clear. The IC in apparent sympathy set up the 1967 line after the last failed war, which was from the Palestinian point of view, an attempted reclamation of the land stolen from them.
The idea was to just kick the can down the road until the Jewish state could get it’s self into a position to grab all of ancient Israel. They are pretty well there and they are about to, very probably, go to war to cement their gains and annex the West Bank. Perhaps even grab more of Syria.
This is misguided as they do not have the means, even with the Saudis on side. Getting beat is going to seriously change everything and I doubt the US could stand by.
The Palis could have accepted the 1947 UN Partition, but they didn’t. They could have had the 1949 ceasefire line, by the 1960s Jordan and Egypt would have happily given up the headaches of Gaza and the West Bank. They could have had almost the 1949 ceasefire line except for a few minor adjustments for which they would have gotten compensating lands in 2000. Sharon and Bush tried to restart talks when Sharon pulled out of Gaza in 2005, and all Israel got for taking the risk was Hamas on its border. Obama was very sympathetic and leaned hard on Israel, and got nothing for his efforts.
They turned it down every time because they want no Israel and no Jews from the River to the Sea.
Meanwhile, Israeli politics drifted rightward, against them, as the Jews being ethnically cleansed from countries like Egypt, Iraq and Iran, settled in Israel and became voters. That’s how Likud grew, and that’s the base for much of the small zealot parties that make Netanyahu’s political life miserable.
Life is indeed hard for many Palestinians, but they brought it on themselves, with the encouragement of their enablers at the UN, the Islamic Conference, and Europe.
Hard to feel much sympathy for those who bring their problems on themselves, generation after generation, and who still insist that a whole other country has to be cleansed for them.
There is an argument based on 19th and early 20th century Turkish census figures that what is now Israel was pretty much unpopulated and barren desolation at the end of the 19th century – see the descriptions of the Holy Land in Mark Twain’s “The Innocents Abroad”. The ancestors of todays’ Pallies didn’t start moving in, until the early Zionists began purchasing tracts of desolate land, and creating jobs, orchards and industries.
Well said Marty.
And about Israel losing the next war I’d never bet on that. Unlike us, when war comes, they play for keeps. And they don’t kid themselves about what the opposing forces might be or do.
With Barry in command, my bet would have been that they would have received nominal support, mostly strong words and humanitarian aid. With the Donald, the opposing forces know the support is going to be robust to their great peril.
God forbid it comes to that, we don’t need the distraction and carnage.
Death6
Traditional Americans: an invented people, being either British on one side, and German on the other.
Best of both, eh, Dearie?
Empty Palestine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0
kick the can down the road until the Jewish state could get it’s self into a position to grab all of ancient Israel
This is like saying the USA is waiting to get into position to take over Canada and Mexico. Israel is militarily stronger than ever relative to its neighbors, yet somehow the massive imperial land grab people like you are always imagining never happens.
In 1854 Karl Marx was working as the European correspondent for the New York Daily Tribune, in an apparent bid to earn some spare cash while waiting for the revolution to finally begin. Anyway, he was touring the Ottoman Empire while covering the Crimean War. Marx visited Jerusalem, and he estimated that Jews made up half the population and were double the size of the Muslim inhabitants.
Constantinople at the time had about 3/4 of a million residents, Cairo maybe about 1/4 million, Beirut was probably about 50,000. Ottoman Jerusalem was sparse, desolate, and in decline in comparison.
PenGun is unaware of a lot but especially that all Jews were driven from the rest of the Middle East, or murdered, and Israel has taken them in.
You know what has not happened ? The Arabs taking in Palestinians.
In fact, with their unerring instinct for losing causes, the Palestinians cheered Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait and got themselves expelled from the Arab countries that had offered them jobs.
They are history’s losers. They had their chance of a state with real borders and hundreds of investors lined up to help in 2000. Read Dennis Ross’ account of the 2000 peace talks. Bill Clinton wanted a Nobel and he pressed Barak to give up more than was really safe, given the Arabs hatred. Arafat walked away.
Eventually, Israel might have to expel them as the Soviets expelled the Sudeten Germans and East Prussians. That’s what happens when you start a war and lose it.
Some invented people come for the change in scenery thinking that will provide them a better life and some come for the opportunity and attitude to create and build. A gross generalization, but the results can be astounding, especially over time.
When the Germans, English, etc. came to North America, they brought their western culture, but not their aristocratic/feudal traditions. That form of privilege they sought to escape. Likewise when the Jews came to the Holy Land, they came for the opportunity to prosper through hard work and opportunity based on their western culture, leaving behind secular and political persecution and genocide. When the “Palestinians” formed they brought their Islamic/feudal culture/religion/ideology with them and found it was as limiting as from whence they came and as was predicable. externalized the fault.
Israel treats their non Jewish population much better than could be expected based on how Jews are treated in their corresponding “homelands” and how they behave within Israel.
Death6
Mark Twain’s final verdict, upon visiting the Holy Land in the late 19th century – From The Innocents Abroad (In short – he was not impressed, at all.)
“Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent. The Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee sleep in the midst of a vast stretch of hill and plain wherein the eye rests upon no pleasant tint, no striking object, no soft picture dreaming in a purple haze or mottled with the shadows of the clouds. Every outline is harsh, every feature is distinct, there is no perspective—distance works no enchantment here. It is a hopeless, dreary, heart-broken land.
Small shreds and patches of it must be very beautiful in the full flush of spring, however, and all the more beautiful by contrast with the far-reaching desolation that surrounds them on every side. I would like much to see the fringes of the Jordan in spring-time, and Shechem, Esdraelon, Ajalon and the borders of Galilee—but even then these spots would seem mere toy gardens set at wide intervals in the waste of a limitless desolation.
Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists—over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead—about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua’s miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour’s presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye. Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village; the riches of Solomon are no longer there to compel the admiration of visiting Oriental queens; the wonderful temple which was the pride and the glory of Israel, is gone, and the Ottoman crescent is lifted above the spot where, on that most memorable day in the annals of the world, they reared the Holy Cross. The noted Sea of Galilee, where Roman fleets once rode at anchor and the disciples of the Saviour sailed in their ships, was long ago deserted by the devotees of war and commerce, and its borders are a silent wilderness; Capernaum is a shapeless ruin; Magdala is the home of beggared Arabs; Bethsaida and Chorazin have vanished from the earth, and the “desert places” round about them where thousands of men once listened to the Saviour’s voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes. Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land? Palestine is no more of this work-day world. It is sacred to poetry and tradition—it is dream-land.”
On those grounds, Sgt Mom, the Chinese should be handed the territory of the USA and allowed to expel all its inhabitants on the grounds that such an intelligent and diligent people would make much better use of it.
Welcome to try, Dearie, welcome to try. If the rumors of Clinton dealings with the Chinese are accurate, they may have bought access to large tracts anyway.
But I think you are comprehensively missing the point – that in the late 19th century, so-called Palestine was a desolate and enticing wasteland. No one wanted the place much, save for the early Zionists, or to do anything much with it save to mulct the religious tourists.
“This is like saying the USA is waiting to get into position to take over Canada and Mexico. Israel is militarily stronger than ever relative to its neighbors, yet somehow the massive imperial land grab people like you are always imagining never happens.”
No it’s not.
Israel’s military could not get past Hezbollah in the last war. Hezbollah is much stronger now and they would only be a part of the forces Israel would face. Israel’s children would fight to the best of their ability but they face battle hardened troops. Right now Israel does not fly over Syria anymore. They fly over Lebanon and use missiles to hit targets in Syria.
The land grab is in progress. Do you really want to look at a picture of the settlements in the west bank? It is impressive.
The Israelis have built a first world nation in that desert. The Palestinians have not but have squandered chances, money, blood. And the squandering of blood seems to indicate a belief system quite different from one that sees rights integral to being a human and the kind of respect for the individual that suicide bombing rejects. This I know.
What I don’t: Given the nature of and control of the UN’s resettlement agencies, I am curious about the rights to property in Palestine. And how much is the free market characteristic of that world – free market of ideas, religion, goods? I don’t know, just asking. How much of the bourgeois virtues of work and prudence are a part of their culture? Some of you will know something about this – I know nothing. I do know that a culture built on grievances is not going to succeed nor will its citizens enjoy and take pride in the products of their own increased productivity. And the more tenuous the grievance the stronger its bitter voice becomes.
The Palestinians did not own that land, they were fairly recent tenants of the Lebanese, Turkish, and Jordanian landlords who owned it.
Nor did they prosper on it while they were tending it. The research isn’t hard. Any place that kept back issues of National Geographic will show it. One can fault the Israelis for some actions of war in achieving statehood – not any worse than what anyone else does in war (including us, sometimes) – but ugly enough. However, the beliefs of the Palestinians of their own history is based on nothing but resentful tales of grandfathers. If those stories were true, they would have a somewhat legitimate complaint, so at one level I understand their anger. It’s ludicrous, but they believe it. I don’t get why anyone with access to actual historical sources believes it, though.
Additionally, the mere fact of focusing on that particular injustice in a world of injustices, even if it were entirely true, is a revealing prejudice. Why the cause of the Palestinians, rather than Tibet, or the Chinese in Indonesia, or the Rohingya of Myanmar, the Dalits in India, or frankly, about a quarter of the tribes of Africa? Why that one, which receives considerable services from their “oppressors,” and money from around the world?
As Yogi Berra said “You can see a lot just by looking.”
“The Palestinians did not own that land, they were fairly recent tenants of …” and many of the other things said in comments here seem to me to be bogus. The Palestinians are probably mainly the descendants of the Jews and Christians who lived there when the Arab armies conquered the area. There’s every chance that the Palestinians have proportionately greater descent from the Jews of around the time of Christ than do the Ashkenazi Jews who set up modern Israel. Not that that need matter, of course.
I have no policy on Israel/Palestine; I take no sides. But I do notice that both sides make free with arguments that seem to be based largely on fake news and special pleading.
So the observations of Mark Twain and Karl Marx are ‘fake news’? So noted.
The Indians in America were a were a primitive people, compared to those from Europe, who took their land. The Palestinians in Israel were a primitive people, compared to those from Europe, who took their land.
Both were crimes.
Now every inch of this planet is owned by right of conquest. Crimes are committed wholesale in war, and one could make a good case that criminals now own the planet. ;)
It could have been done so much better. Now Israel faces serious pain if it continues on the course it does appear to be on. This for many reasons, but mainly that the people they have fought with many times before are now much stronger, better armed and more capable.. This largely because of war, supported by Israel clandestinely, and the west quite openly.
DearieYou, are you trying to say
-Jews are invented People?
-Palestinians are a separate, singular nation?
-an anti-semitic propaganda film is your proof?
Oh my, those Brits in their snobish jew-hatred outdid themselves once again
Most of the planet is owned by right of conquest, but there are exceptions. I believe the Vikings were the first human beings to land in Iceland, and their descendents are still 99% of the occupants and still rule it. Malays were the first humans to land on Madagascar and most of the smaller islands in the Pacific. Some of the latter were colonized by Americans or Europeans, so (e.g.) Hawaii and Guam (and New Zealand, for that matter) are ruled by right of conquest, but most of the atolls in Polynesia are occupied by descendants of the first settlers, and have autonomy when they don’t have independence. I’m pretty sure the Falklands, St Helena, Tristan da Cunha, and Bermuda were uninhabited before Europeans discovered them, so neither American Indians to their west nor Africans to their east have any claim on them, though different European nations may argue about who has the better claim. In short, there are still a few places ruled by right of first discovery and first occupation.
I object to being accused of ‘snobish jew-hatred’: you are a fucking disgrace. Have you no idea how to discuss an issue? Have you no ability to understand “I have no policy on Israel/Palestine; I take no sides”? Must it always be my experience that neither Jews nor Arabs are capable of rising to the challenge of civilised debate on this issue?
P.S. By convention there are two “b”s in snobbish.
the people they have fought with many times before are now much stronger, better armed and more capable..
Knee slapper of the day to penny.
I don’t know why Dearieme thinks he’s been compared to a snob. He’s obviously been compared to something made by Snobe, a Belgian leather goods company (link). Their motto is from Coco Chanel: “some people think luxury is the opposite of poverty. It is not. It is the opposite of vulgarity.”
Of course, if you take no side on an issue where one side is trying to obliterate the other, and the other is just trying to survive, you are saying that you don’t care if a democratic nation of seven or eight million is wiped from the face of the earth. Snobish or non-snobish, it looks to me like the difference between that and “jew-hatred” is merely technical. “‘Never again’? Hey, whatever, I don’t care one way or the other.” That may not be the message you’re trying to send, but it is the message people are hearing.
Note that no one has been snickering at VP Mike Pence lately, for being a woman-hating prude, in never yet being alone with a woman not his wife.
When all this came to light I learned about the Billy Graham rule, which seems pretty sensible to me.
Not even a question of “he said – she said”
As to the Palestinians threatening that the move to Jerusalem will “derail the peace process” – after 70 years the threat seems rather hollow
A distinction without a difference, Bill.
I must admit the Billy Graham rule appears more and more sensible every day that the Pervnado roars on. I can only guess that the reason the usual crowd were so miffed about hearing about it with regard to VP Pence was sheer pique that they would never credibly have some woman appear out of the blue and accuse him of conduct unbecoming.
And that pecan pie certainly looks good. Anyone have Ms Saunder’s recipe for the chocolate version with bourbon?
DM, my apologies for losing that all-important “b”.
I expect you to meet my questions with honest answers.
So, once again: are you trying to say:
-Jews are invented People?
-Palestinians are a separate, singular nation?
-an anti-semitic propaganda film is your proof?
If you don’t answer directly and to the point, and prefer instead personal insults in disgusting street language you will firmly ensconce yourself as condescending snoBBish Brit, a “colonials”-hating “better” nincompoop full of oneself – with no basis of that high self regard, whatsoever.
Of course, if you do answer honestly, you’ll establish yourself as even worse: a Jew-hater, an European (note the article!) with all-too-familiar false attitude of discriminating between “Jews” and “Israelis”.
Ah, what a dilemma!
“Knee slapper of the day to penny.”
You obviously do not have much of an idea what faces Israel now. The victors of the Syrian war have defeated ISIS and the US, Qatari and Saudi backed rebels. It’s not over yet but the main part sure is. There are reasons that Bibi thinks he needs to act tough.
A battle hardened army is far more valuable that one that is not, the Israeli army for instance. Their kids will have to deal with experienced and very brutal fighters. The ones that have survived years of war are very hard to kill. As well this war has been conducted under modern battlefield conditions and facing the Israelis will just bring more airpower to deal with and virgin solders to fight with.
Now this army will not be allowed to win. But the US will have to do that.
Mostly off topic: Instapundit links to this Al-Jazeera interview.
PenGun is hoping against hope that the Arabs have learned to fight an army instead of children and peaceful villagers.
Dayan summarized it when asked why he won all his battles. “Fight Arabs.”
Dearie, there is a strain of Arabism in Brits that certainly infects our own State Department. As McMillan said in 1942, the British are the Greeks to the American Romans.
Likewise when the Jews came to the Holy Land, they came for the opportunity to prosper through hard work
The Paul Johnson history makes the point, and I think it valid, that Jews who arrived in Israel after WWII, were determined to show they could farm and work the land, which they had not been allowed to do in Europe for a thousand years. The Russian Jews were peasants and, between pogroms, were farmers but not as many survived the War,
Einsatzgruppen took care of that.
The Palestinians have no friends in the Middle East. Soon Europe is going to be over run with Muslims and that, just possibly, will reduce their affection for the Palestinians.
The Palestinians missed their chance in 2000. I’m not sure they will get another.
Oh, and Dearie, there area we call Palestine was almost empty when Mark Twain visited. Read his description.
Also, for PenGun, I have just read “Grant” the new biography and he was very pro-Indian and tried desperately to get them to take up agriculture but the Plains Indians would not change and resisted his efforts to help them. Sadly, the Iroquois who were farmers, had chosen the wrong side in the war of 1754, which we call “The French and Indian War.”
Dartmouth College was founded to educate their children but they chose to attempt a war of annihilation. Like the Palestinians, they failed and vanished from history,
Machiavelli said, “Never strike a Prince unless you kill him.”
An analogous rule would be “If you start a war you had better win it.”
“Sadly, the Iroquois who were farmers, had chosen the wrong side in the war of 1754, which we call “The French and Indian War.””
This is not correct. The Iroquois hated the French. They were firmly on the British side. Most of them did the same during the Revolution. That was their downfall. The league was split, and they (mostly) picked the wrong side, and were in general dealt with harshly because of it.
Mike, you be might be thinking of the Pequot of New England, part of the Algonquin and allied with the French. They were the first to bear the brunt of colonial expansion when they fought a war with the Puritans in the 1630s. The Huron of the Iroquois Confederation, on the other hand, fought the French Jesuits.
Both confederations, Algonquin vs Iroquois, also fought against each other in the Beaver Wars, a brutally violent war of annihilation to decide who would the profit from exploiting their peaceful innocent paradise.
The tragic example of the New England Algonquin tribes prompted Andrew Jackson, who was already facing Southern hostility with the Nullification Crisis, to evacuate the Cherokee from Georgia in the 1830s. The (so-called) trail of tears was a population transfer that saved the tribe. Jackson, who had an adopted Indian son, knew then what we have since forgotten in our modern system of Dogmatic Liberal Globalism. The only proven way to avoid the horrendous bloodshed of ethnic conflicts is to separate the ethnic groups from each other.
“PenGun is hoping against hope that the Arabs have learned to fight an army instead of children and peaceful villagers.”
I have been watching America knock over country after country. When the Syrian affair started I actually predicted Assad would stay in power. If I knew what I knew now I would have been far less confident.
Assad has survived America’s attempt, well it was a communal effort in Syria, to replace him with someone more compliant. The Russians have a lot to do with this but they have been subjected to the same game and are still upset about the messes in Kosovo and Libya.
If you don’t think the victors of Aleppo, and the rest of Syria at this point, can fight, then I dunno. The people who have destroyed ISIS wholesale, not the careful retail efforts the Americans have done in the hope of keeping conflict alive, but wholesale.
Here’s a story from the ‘you can’t make this stuff up” file. After synagogues in Sweden were firebombed by crazed Muslims shouting death to Jews, the Liberal government expressed shock and dismay that Arabs could be anti-Semitic.
Who could have possibly forseen that the hundreds of thousands of Muslim migrants they imported, causing their country to be transformed into the rape capital of Europe, would turn out to be racists?
PenGun hopes and hopes and contaminates the comments with his blather.
Mike, you be might be thinking of the Pequot of New England, part of the Algonquin and allied with the French. They were the first to bear the brunt of colonial expansion when they fought a war with the Puritans in the 1630s. The Huron of the Iroquois Confederation, on the other hand, fought the French Jesuits.
Apparently the French had many Indian allis of various tribes and the Iroquois were not the main allies.
However, the most notorious incident of that war did involve some Iroquois allies of the French.
According to historian William Nester, a large number of tribal nations were present during the siege. Some were represented by only a few individual warriors. Some individuals were thought to have traveled 1,500 miles (2,400 km) to join the French, coming from as far away as the Mississippi River and Hudson Bay.[20] Nester proposed that some of the atrocities, which included the murder and scalping of sick individuals and the digging up of bodies for plunder and scalping, resulted in many Indians becoming infected with smallpox, which they then carried into their communities. The devastation wrought by the disease in the following years had a notable effect on Indian participation in the French campaigns of the following years.[53] The tribes that Nester lists are:
Abenaki, Algonquin, Fox, Huron, Iowa, “Canadian” Iroquois, Menominee, Miami, Mi’kmaq, Mississauga, Nipissing, Ojibwe, Onondaga, Ottawa, Potawatomi, Sac, Tetes-de-Boules, Winnebago
I have been watching America knock over country after country.
This. Germany, twice. Japan. Italy. And a brace of lesser ones. We really do need to get out of the country-knocking-out business. Let our parasitic “allies” take care of themselves.
PenGun: I have been watching America knock over country after country.
CapitalistRoader in reply:This. Germany, twice. Japan. Italy. And a brace of lesser ones.
With regard to the big knock overs- World Wars I and II- it is interesting that Canada was fighting in those wars before the US did. I also have read over the years some complaints from the Brits and Canadians to the effect that the US was somewhat derelict in not having entered those conflicts earlier.
“PenGun hopes and hopes and contaminates the comments with his blather.”
That’s pretty much what it is. He doesn’t do discussions.
“That’s pretty much what it is. He doesn’t do discussions.”
I do try, but reason is not what people do here. I point out facts and am contaminating the conversation. ;)
The US has knocked over Iran, Iraq, Guatemala, South Vietnam, Brazil, Chile, Yugoslavia, Libya and Ukraine. They have failed to knock over South Ossetia, Crimea, Turkey and of course Assad.
People are starting to notice. ;)
“I do try, but reason is not what people do here.”
I’ll bet you can find a nice lefty blog that will agree with you and therefore not ban your comments.
They even call what they do “reason” like you do.
Well, you see, Penny – and I’m breaking it to you gently – you don’t seem actually to be here for a discussion of a matter in which you have any discernible expertise or viable insight. You show up, throw a stink-bomb or two into the thread, and most of us ignore it, because it’s the straight Comintern line, or whatever passes for the Comintern line in these degraded days. I can’t speak for the other contributors, but the main reason I don’t use the ban-hammer is because I don’t care to. This is not a university, merely an internet discussion thread.
You do, however, provide me with a certain degree of amusement and inspiration.
http://lunacitytexas.com/index.php/2017/01/24/new-luna-city-story/
PenGun
The US has knocked over… Chile..
You are undoubtedly referring to Allende. The narrative about the “democratically elected” Allende ignores the fact that Allende was elected with 36% of the vote in 1970. His coalition won about 44% of the vote in the legislative elections of 1969 and 1973. Allende never had the support of the majority of the electorate-though his election via the legislature in 1970 was kosher. As Allende was trying to institute radical change,he ran into problems because most of the time he didn’t have the votes in the legislature to pass his programs.
The weeks before the Coup, the Chamber of Deputies pass a resolution sometimes known as the Declaration of the Breakdown of Chile’s Democracy. An excerpt follows.
Those are rather strong words. The resolution passed by an 81-47 vote, a strong 63% majority. Allende correctly stated that the resolution promoted a coup. That resolution from the also “democratically elected” Chamber of Deputies indicated there was strong popular support for the coup.
Several days before the coup, Carlos Altamirano admitted involvement in the attempted naval mutiny in August. Carlos Altamirano was head of the Socialist Party- which was Allende’s party. PenGun, as a military brat, you probably have an understanding that military people do not take kindly to mutinies.
Recommended:
José Piñera: Never Again: How Allende Destroyed Democracy in Chile. His brother was recently re-elected President.
James Whelan:Out of the ashes. Life, death and transfiguration of democracy in Chile, 1833-1988.
Georgie Ann Geyer, (long ago) the famed journalist, has some interesting observations about Allende in her autobiography, Buying the Night Flight. You can read it online at Google Books.
Simon Collier’s A History of Chile 1808-2002 is also recommended.
Tanya Harmer’s Allende’s Chile and the Inter-American Cold War is interesting, but her approach often reminds me of “if you have a hammer, use it.” Because she is writing from am international perspective, she sometimes ignores domestic Chilean points of view. For example she writes the following: “Of course, the mistake the Nixon administration made in Chile was to disregard Allende’s unbending commitment to constitutional government and the anomaly of La Vía Chilena.” Allende had an “unbending commitment to constitutional government”? The Supreme Court of Chile would beg to differ. From Piñera:
PenGun, until I decided to inform myself about Chile, I had much the same opinion as you.
The Allende Myth
Jonathan, thank you for the link. I wonder if our friend out in the Canadian woods will ever bother to read any of the material he has been presented on Allende. I doubt it. Snark is much more fun- and much easier.
Carlos Rangel’s book, The Latin Americans: Their Love-hate Relationship with the United States, is available for reading at Google Books. An excellent book. He has a chapter on Allende. I originally read him in Spanish,with a rather different title: Del Buen Salvaje al Buen Revolucionario. (From the Good Savage to the Good Revolutionary.)
Encounter had some good reporting on the Allende era.
http://www.unz.org/Pub/Encounter
June 1971, Alistair Horne, Comandante Pepe.
August 1972,Robert Moss, Allende’s Chile.
January 1974,David Holden, Allende and the Myth Makers
March 1974,Robert Moss, Chile’s Coup and After
One final detail. Those who mourn the “democratically elected” Allende undoubtedly are very much against government by a military man’s decree. The legislature voted for nationalizations of banks and copper. For the vast majority of his hundreds of nationalizations, Allende claimed they were legal by referring to a decree law that a short-lived military government, a.k.a. the Socialist Republic, had issued in 1932. The “democratically elected” Allende uses a decree issued by a military coupster. Colonel Marmaduke Grove, who issued the decree, became a political partner with Salvador Allende. I read somewhere that Grove married into the Allende family.
Speaking of commenters who don’t have a clue, consider this from commenter Dan at The Allende Myth. (Link at Jonathan’s comment)
Consider what the author of The Allende myth wrote about sources.
Contrary to what commenter Dan claimed, the article already had balanced sources. Either commenter Dan didn’t bother to read carefully, or his objection was not to lack of balance, but that Robert Moss was included. I am reminded of William F Buckley.
So Chile you disagree with. OK.
Mike I have no friends who think like I do. I find lefty sites even more boring that right wing sites.
“You do, however, provide me with a certain degree of amusement and inspiration.”
I am honored to be an inspiration, no matter what part I must play. ;) You nailed the treasure hunter part. My less than completely honest new Skyrim char, the Kajiit Bart, is a serious scammer and spend a lot of time hunting for gold and goodies.
http://carnagepro.com/pics/Bart.jpg
I like ‘aggressive cheerfulness’, as I use it more and more these days.
What we call liberals today – I think changed from the classic definition – and I think it was FDR that did the change. To me, a classic liberal, like Thomas Jefferson, would be what we think of as libertarians today.
That government which governs best governs least” would certainly not be a platform for the DNC today.
Certainly an intolerance for opposing thought – politely called “political correctness” was not around during Jefferson’s time nor even FDRs time.
What we call liberalism today meta-morphed into something different today.
Interesting (answering my own post ;-) ) – what I always attributed to Jefferson was actually Thoreau.
But Jefferson used to love to have dinner guests all discuss issues of the day at his estate in Monticello.
I also have read over the years some complaints from the Brits and Canadians to the effect that the US was somewhat derelict in not having entered those conflicts earlier.
‘Cause they wanted us to save white people, people every bit as white as the average Brit or Canadian. But neither cotton to the US military coming to the aid of brown or yellow people. No. That’s why leftists always start history in 1945.
PenGun:
So Chile you disagree with. OK.
Translation: maybe those wingnuts aren’t as ignorant as I assumed.
PenGun:
So Chile you disagree with. OK.
“Translation: maybe those wingnuts aren’t as ignorant as I assumed.”
Umm that’s one of 9 countries I listed. I was amused to see you could only find one to seriously disagree with.
PenGun
Umm that’s one of 9 countries I listed. I was amused to see you could only find one to seriously disagree with.
Rest assured Chile wasn’t the only one on my disagree-with-PenGun-list.I don’t see the point of taking the time to write all of them out for you. As the Sarge said, you are more interested in one-liners than in actual discussion.
¿Me entendés? You unnerstan’?
“What we call liberalism today meta-morphed into something different today.”
I like the term “progs” as an abbreviation for “Progressive,” even if they aren’t.