American Jews who voted for Obama, here’s your thanks. Enjoy. You can rationalize your foolishness by blaming everything on Bibi and those nasty Likudniks (never mind that Israeli voters, who paid a high cost in blood for the harebrained appeasement policies implemented between 1993 and 2005, now keep giving the Likud governing pluralities).
As Israel’s “peace partners” become increasingly hostile, Obama and his crew of leftist ideologues, Islamist apologists and Israel haters double down on pressing Israel to risk more lives and treasure while demanding nothing of Israel’s adversaries. But hey, we don’t want anyone to accuse us Jews of having dual loyalties, do we? Better to support Obama’s failed policies that weaken the USA and its allies. Or something. Intellectually, I sort of understand how leftist Jews can put partisan politics above national interest and self-interest, or (most likely, I think) can define national and self-interest as synonymous with the goals of leftist partisan politics. But emotionally, I don’t get it. Why wouldn’t you eagerly support a democratic country run by your own people and allied with the USA, against the warlords, dictatorships and gangster satrapies that would destroy it? Another one of life’s mysteries.
It is a real madness this situation.
American Christians have been pretty much equally obtuse when it comes to the oppression of their co-religionists in Muslim lands.
I think part of what is going on is that economic & social problems in the U.S. have led to a turning inward, to a reluctance to even think seriously about what is going on elsewhere in the world.
And part of it is the dynamic that I discussed in this post: The phobias that may destroy America:
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/32937.html
David – Jonathan – I fear that we are going to pay the price sooner or later. Do you all get the feeling you are in a raft and Niagara falls is just up ahead – and we are supposed to “enjoy the ride” ;-)
I’ve been hearing the same beleaguered Israel story now for 64 years. Is it still too late to move them lock, stock & barrel to Nevada?
Hillary is very much an ideological cousin of Obama. Those who believe she would be a better president either don’t know her or are concealing their own agenda. She has zero experience in managing anything. Her politics are possible left of even Obama. She is at least as anti-Semetic as he is.
I first encountered anti-Semitism in the person of my beloved black nursemaid. She raised my sister and me in the 1940s and was bitterly opposed to “the Jews.” Some of this was related to the fact that most businesses in black neighborhoods in Chicago at that time were run by Jews. It is the same phenomenon we see with Korean grocers in Los Angles at the time of the Rodney King riots. It is interesting to me that American blacks have never been interested in running small businesses. In Africa, the market economies were mostly conducted by women and were suppressed by the communists who ruled after independence. As communism has faded in Africa, some areas, like Ghana, have seen the reappearance of the market economy, again run by black women.
Slavery might be an influence on black life in America as it reduced the tradition of business but I remember black men who came to wash windows and women who did the ironing for families on our middle class block in the 1940s. Many of them worked for multiple families and conducted what we would call small businesses. The Great Society killed off much of this, I suspect, just as it killed off the black family.
In re: Black hatred for those who sold necessities in their neighborhood. I grew up in metro Denver. The Capitol Hill area in turn was upscale, mansions broken up into apartments, and downscale slum with gangbangers and druggies. Now they are re-gentrifying. There were 3 supermarkets serving the area. Two Safeways [one at Pearl and Colfax, one at York and Colfax] and a King Soopers [at 9th and Corona at the very south edge of the area]. When it was gang-banger heaven; both Safeways were robbed repeatedly, shoplifted constantly, and had driveby shootings regularly [as in once or twice a week]. It was both unsafe for shoppers and staff, and they were losing money for years. Safeway closed both stores, and of course to the perpetual grievance types it was all because they hated blacks, because they did not close the other few dozen Safeways in Metro Denver. The King Soopers is still there last I looked, but the area is better, and was well patrolled by Denver Police, in no small part because at the time the governor’s [“Capitol” Hill] daughter went to the elementary school across the street.
But when it comes to business, apparently if they don’t lose money and accept casualties, they are “racist”.
Subotai Bahadur
The “Palestinians” will never make peace with Israel. It is not a matter of ideology or religion. It is because of economics.
The UN, the US, and the Europeans (through the EU and otherwise) send gigadollars to the “Palestinians” every year. Some of it goes directly to ordinary “Palestinians” from UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency), the only UN agency dedicated to a single group of people. The rest of it of it goes to the “Palestinian Authority” (Arafat’s gang) which uses it to “provide security” (pay armed thugs to kill Jews and any “Palestinians” who get out of line) and pay other “Palestinians” for other “services” (i.e. sitting in coffee shops and drinking coffee).
Until that gusher of money is cut off, the “Palestinians” will never make peace.
That’s a good point. We and the Euros are paying to keep the problem going. Any real deal between Israel and the Pals would cut off a lot of people’s livelihoods.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said.
What a bizarre and totally disingenuous post.
“Suckas”?? What is that supposed to mean? The term usually refers to people who are naive and are misled. Tell us seriously Jonathen, do you imagine that the people who voted for Obama were under some illusion that he, or Hillary, were fervent supporters of the insane, extremist Likud policy line? Such that now they are having that illusion burst?
I can’t believe, for one moment, that you honestly believe that.
Do you really need to be reminded of the obvious here? That the majority of American Jews, and the vast majority of decent, rational people find the Likud party position to be, at best, insanely self-destructive for Israel? And that by threatening to complete the encirclement of East Jerusalem, that Netanyahu is dooming Israel to one of the three very bad outcomes available?
It seems unarguable now that the Likud has totally opposed to any coherent, viable Palestinian state from ever arising. Which leaves three possibilities. Perhaps it would be helpful, Jonathan, if you told us which of these three you are hoping for, so that we could understand where you are coming from with your comments.
Shall it be 1) eradication of the Palestinian population in the occupied territories through genocide or ethnic cleansing, so that a secure “greater Israel” can fill all the land between the river and the sea?
Or 2) a greater Israel that leaves the Palestinian population in place but forces them to accept, permanently, a second-class citizenship – without the right to have an equal voice in government.
Or 3) a greater Israel-Palestine, with equal rights for all, in which the Jews would be a minority of the electorate.
What is your vision Jonathan? How does this stupid little tantrum from Netanyahu fit into the vision that you support?
What a bizarre and totally disingenuous post.
I suppose the most tedious aspect of your comments, Joe, is your tendency to express surprise and dismay bordering on outrage at anything contrary to your thinking, which whatever the subject you seem to regard as plain and obvious common sense no reasonable person could much diverge from. Like you’ve stumbled across some stupefying, unexpected heresy against orthodoxy.
And I don’t even have anything to say about this particular issue. Just Sayin’, as they say.
We all know that #1 is the solution that is being tried these days. Actually probably that was the plan since the beginning. That is why the Palestinians are so intransigent … it’s obvious to them too.
TK,
“I suppose the most tedious aspect of your comments, Joe, is your tendency to express surprise and dismay bordering on outrage at anything contrary to your thinking,”
That is how I define a troll. They contribute nothing as their comments are devoid of links and the tone is so offensive that no one is inclined to read the comment. The purpose is to draw attention.
PenGun is a little different. Intractable ignorance can seem similar to the ravings of a troll.
Hillary’s admonition to be generous and empathetic to people who launch rockets at your civilians is beyond parody.
Israel needs to reduce its reliance on the USA. Closer ties to Russia and China would be smart. Having the US as the only option unwise. The Chinese and Russians are notably short on empathy for terrorists, and would spare the Israelis and the world Mrs. Clinton’s tedious drivel.
Joe Citizen accuses me of arguing in bad faith, which is a topic he knows a lot about. I would delete his comment but there are replies to it, and I want to respond to a couple of his assertions that are common lefty talking points and deserve to be refuted. (BTW, Joe, you may not participate further in this thread. If you leave additional comments I will delete them and any responses to them.)
The first assertion is of “insane, extremist” Likud policies. But the Likud is the dominant partner in a governing coalition that includes Labor. To gain this position the Likud had to win a larger percentage of total votes than any other party, so it is by definition mainstream rather than extremist. Moreover, even if Likud’s policies were somehow unrepresentative and unpopular they would be moderated by its Labor coalition partners; otherwise there would eventually be new elections and Likud would lose its dominant role. Yet Likud is expected to increase its share of votes in the coming elections. Finally, the current govt is one of the longest-lived coalitions in Israeli history. When American and European leftists attack “the Likud” they are really attacking the Israeli coalition govt and by extension the preferences of the majority of Israelis. Since it is Israelis, not Americans or Europeans, who pay in blood for bad policies, the fact that they have shifted their preferences to anti-accommodationist parties since the debacles of 1993-2005 should be treated with respect rather than dismissal (or hectoring from Hillary).
The second assertion, in this case implied, is that Israel is responsible for the lack of progress toward a peace deal with the Palestinians. This is starkly false. Israel offered substantial territorial concessions during Oslo, in 1998-2000, withdrew from Lebanon, withdrew from Gaza, etc. The Palestinian response has been 1) refusal to accept generous Israeli territorial offers, 2) abrogation of past agreements and 3) war. The current Palestinian leadership is divided between Hamas and the PA. Hamas is currently at war with Israel and continues to declare that the destruction of Israel is its goal. The PA has been refusing to negotiate for the past several years. Israel is strong militarily and thriving economically. Why should it do anything other than defend itself as necessary and wait for the Palestinians to come to their senses?
[bzzzt!]
Joe Citizen
Shall it be 1) eradication of the Palestinian population in the occupied territories through genocide or ethnic cleansing, so that a secure “greater Israel” can fill all the land between the river and the sea?
Or 2) a greater Israel that leaves the Palestinian population in place but forces them to accept, permanently, a second-class citizenship – without the right to have an equal voice in government.
Or 3) a greater Israel-Palestine, with equal rights for all, in which the Jews would be a minority of the electorate. Equal rights for all- such as Hamas practices in Gaza?
JC leaves out the the preferred Arab choice. See the Hamas covenant etc.
4) Drive the Effing Joos into the sea.
[poof!]
I guess Joe Citizen missed this part:
(BTW, Joe, you may not participate further in this thread. If you leave additional comments I will delete them and any responses to them.)
Apparently Joe isn’t the brightest bulb in the marquee, as my grandfather used to say.
The antipathy to Likud on the part of the left resembles the antipathy to black conservatives like Clarence Thomas. The left knows what is good for the Jews, just as it knows what is good for blacks. In both cases, taking responsibility for one’s self is not on the list. Israel was at one time socialist and accommodating. With time, it has learned that socialism does not create wealth and that accommodation does not bring peace.
It seems to me, and the theory is supported by some reading I have done, that early Israel had a sort of “superiority complex” that led many Jews to emphasize farming and manual labor. Some of this was necessity as the land of Israel has a harsh climate and lacks water. Some of this was also a determination to overcome the legend that Jews were only interested in money and trade and lacked the skills of the working classes. The legend grew from restrictive laws of antiquity that barred Jews from land ownership and most trades except money lending.
With time, the original psychology of Israel has shifted from the complex of the founders and the talents of the Israelis have been combined with more practical economic policies to bring prosperity. There is still quite a bit of socialism but the free market is growing. American blacks are still held in thrall by the complex of inferiority created by slavery and the Jim Crow era. The Civil Rights era led to a period of rage and resentment that has not yet faded and which continues to hold back American blacks. It does not affect those foreign born from Africa and even descendants of slaves who grew up in the West Indies. It is unique to American blacks.
I see this over and over in medical students, and grad students. Some of it is distorted by affirmative action that places black students in situations that they are not prepared for. It also stigmatizes those who may be prepared but who doubt it. It is not a matter of economics because I have seen foreign born black students who are so poor a car breakdown is a catastrophe but they still made good grades.
I watched a leader of CORE, the civil rights organization, describe the immorality of racialist policies of the Democratic Party. Of course, it was on Fox News as he would get no time on another network. If I were a Democratic Party leader, I would live in fear of the black epiphany about affirmative action and welfare but they are not concerned as they are just as much prisoners of their ideology as American blacks are.
The Jews have lived in Israel and surrounding areas since chapter 1, verse 1 of Genesis. From the beginning, Jews have fought for their lives and several rulers have bragged that they have killed every Jew in the world. Merenptah, son of Ramesses II, had the words “Israel, her seed is no more” carved in granite in 1200 BC. The stele is in a museum in Israel.
The Jews are still where they have always been and neighboring rulers still want to kill them. There is no way Jews can make peace except by mass suicide. Anyone who argues differently ignores history’s #1 lesson.
There are many Palestinians who simply want to start a business and raise a family. There is a ruling class that simply wants to kill jews.
Allende invited the communist ruling class of Chile to a meeting in a football stadium. Pinochet showed up and killed them all. Now, in Chile, the communist ruling class is dead and the peasants start businesses and feed their children. This is the Pinochet path to solving the Palestinian problem.
Grey Eagle, I was referring to the European Jews.
Bringing Arafat back from Tunisia was the first big mistake.
Michael, I wouldn’t really classify Joe as an out-and-out troll, else I wouldn’t have bothered chiding him. Chiding trolls really is a waste of typing. And I wasn’t gunning to have him kicked off-thread (not that it was up to me; the Joe v Jonathon thing has its own history).
Besides, I thought PenGun was the official Resident Troll. I mean, sometimes he’ll just pop up with a splenetic two-line venom bomb. But — refreshing!!
I don’t bother trying to reason with you lot, it’s a waste of time. All I will do is point out what I think might be useful truth to illuminate your closed minds.
Now Joe is actually trying to reason with you and you ban his ass.
Hi ho.
in re “Joe Citizen” I think T.K. Tortch summarized him best above – but he doesn’t bother me one way or the other. I just learned through a few exchanges that trying to have a meaningful dialog with him was a waste of time – so I ignore him.
I have learned a lot from others on this list – some of you have encyclopedic minds – from Lex and Adm King to Sgt Mom & Texas history to Dr Kennedy on subjects ranging from medicine to…Arafat.
And others not mentioned….
chicagoboyz is a pretty cool place to stop and chat…
I agree, Bill. I regret the banning but have not been able to find redeeming virtues, such as information. PenGun at least describes himself and gives us some basis for judging his comments. Ignorance, even combined with snark, is more tolerable than nasty comments reeking of superiority and aimed only at one’s own ego.