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  • Shithole Countries

    Posted by Jonathan on January 13th, 2018 (All posts by )

    Anecdote of a recent conversation:

    A: Where are you from?

    B: A bad part of Kingston.

    A: What part is that?

    B: All of it.

    Did Trump say “shithole”? It sounds like his typical bombast that enrages people who don’t like him. It also sets a trap for his political opponents by reframing the conversation. The questions whether we should favor immigrants from specific countries and with specific personal qualifications are back in play. Many voters think these questions are important despite the continuing efforts of establishment pols of both parties to stipulate them as beyond the pale. The attempt to conflate the characterizations of countries and of individuals is a rhetorical sleight of hand intended to dismiss doubts about mass-immigration by unskilled people from dysfunctional countries. Ann Althouse nailed this point. The doubts are reasonable — Wouldn’t the French and Germans have been better off heeding such concerns in the recent past? Shutting up people who express such thoughts may be more likely in the long run to lead to an immigration moratorium or other crude measures than to convince the doubters to acquiesce in the admission to the USA of more unvetted young Somali and Central American men.

    What Trump was saying, as ordinary people will understand it, is obviously true: We should encourage immigration based on our country’s needs rather than on the needs of prospective immigrants; we should favor people who are likely to be highly productive; and we should attempt to screen out criminals, terrorists and people who are mainly interested in welfare-state subsidies.

    There are many talented people in Haiti, but as a country Haiti is troubled and unproductive, which is why so many Haitians want to leave. Perhaps Mia Love is bound to criticize Trump based on Trump’s crudeness of expression and reported disrespectful words, but Trump is right. There were good reasons for Congresswoman Love’s family to leave Haiti for the USA. We are lucky to have them, but that’s not the same thing as saying that we should let in every Haitian who wants to come here. We should be more selective and we should reform our immigration bureaucracy to make things easier for the people we want.

    We can expect additional inflammatory stories about Trump’s supposed racism and other character flaws while his negotiations with Congress on immigration continue.


    69 Responses to “Shithole Countries”

    1. Brian Says:

      I think Trump should give an Oval Office address on immigration. Speak calmly and reasonably about a policy that includes a partial wall, E-Verify, and a shift to skills-based immigration (which I actually am ambivalent about), away from the absurd lottery system and chain migration, some legal path for legit children immigrants (i.e., not 18 year old Central Americans who came a year or two ago). All of these are hugely popular. He needs to actually use the bully pulpit, on national TV, not let the idiots in the MSM filter what he says.

    2. The 26th Parallel Says:

      “We should encourage immigration based on our country’s needs rather than on the needs of prospective immigrants…”

      Where would Miami be today with that kind of thinking back in the day, heh, Jonathan?

      It’s always a good indicator that you may be looking at things a little screwy when David Duke agrees with you.

      Just sayin’.

    3. Anonymous Says:

      we should favor people who are likely to be highly productive; and we should attempt to screen out criminals, terrorists and people who are mainly interested in welfare-state subsidies.

      That’s the way it was until Ted Kennedy reversed it in the ’60s with his revised immigration legislation. Now we favor third world deadbeats — which the Dems admit they see as future Democrat voters.

      Another reason to piss on his grave.

    4. Mike K Says:

      Where would Miami be today with that kind of thinking back in the day, heh, Jonathan?

      Miami would be just fine, thank you, unless you have something against Cubans, like too many leftists who don’t consider Cubans “Hispanic.”

      When Castro created his communist dictatorship, the Cuban middle class left as soon as it was able.

      Skills based immigration laws would not be a problem for 90% of the Cuban immigrants,

      Africans would also do just fine with skills based immigration. I take to some of them. Some are my medical students.

      It is interesting to see the left wing racism that pretends to be empathy.

      I meet African kids who know exactly what they are doing. Do you know how many members of the Ibo tribe from Nigeria are now working in the Financial industry as “quants?”

      The successful Africans I meet don’t understand American blacks who see themselves as victims in the midst of the greatest opportunity for people who are black in history.

      The same applies to West Indian blacks who also have a history of slavery. It is like American blacks cry of hunger with a feast sitting before them.

    5. Mr Black Says:

      I cannot see any compelling reason to admit anyone at all. America doesn’t need immigration, it doesnt need cultural and racial dilution. America is the people, not the soil, and if the people are replaced its no longer America.

    6. Kaiser Derden Says:

      Mia Love is an American now BECAUSE Haiti is and was a sh*Thole … reason her parents left …

    7. The 26th Parallel Says:

      “…it doesnt need cultural and racial dilution.”

      And there it is…

    8. Mike K Says:

      New evidence of how countries become sh**holes.

      It’s the Mugabe way.

    9. Jonathan Says:

      I cannot see any compelling reason to admit anyone at all. America doesn’t need immigration, it doesnt need cultural and racial dilution. America is the people, not the soil, and if the people are replaced its no longer America.

      This statement is the inverse of America should admit anyone who wants to come here and if you don’t agree you’re racist. America is the culture, not the ethnic background or skin color of its people. We should welcome immigrants with enterprising attitudes who want to assimilate into our culture. We have no obligation to take in people faster than we can assimilate them or regardless of their beliefs or of whether they are likely to be liabilities.

    10. PenGun Says:

      It’s pretty obvious that Trump was sitting around with the senators and tossed that off, as many people would, without thinking. Dick Durban must have run to the nearest phone salivating, when this jewel dropped in his lap.

      It’s the “without thinking” part that I like, and you should fear. It has been very good for my point of view, and has accelerated America’s fall from preeminence.

    11. Mrs. Davis Says:

      It’s pretty obvious

      Since it’s Penny you can be pretty sure it’s not obvious.

      Trump held his on camera meeting Monday* and promised “I think my positions are going to be what the people in this room come up with. If they come to me with things I’m not in love with, I’m going to do it. Because I respect them.”

      On Thursday Grahmnesty and Durban came to him with what they wanted to do. And Trump said, I’m not in love with it and I’m not going to do it. So after the meeting Durbin came out and said Shithole! Shithole! Shithole! And nobody talked about how he had double-crossed them in a matter of four days.

      Trump is no dummy and is a hard worker, in spite of what you read in the MSM. I would bet he used the word intentionally and it had the reaction he hoped. Certainly more time has been spent by the MSM getting to say and print Shithole! Shithole! Shithole! than discussing how Trump double-crossed the senators. Its vulgarity, which I abhor, had exactly the distracting effect he hoped it would.

      * And note how the Monday meeting was held to step on Fire and Fury, which was released the prior Thursday. He repudiated the thrust of that book in 45 minutes.

    12. PenGun Says:

      I do not think Trump is stupid. In fact he has to be pretty smart to have negotiated the snake pit he’s in so very well. His instincts are good and he has been dealing for a long time. He is somewhat impulsive though, not a careful man.

      He is however, ignorant. To the point he has no real basis to decide whether the things he is being told are true or not. He’s doing remarkably well, but he’s not steering the ship. Luckily for me, and perhaps you even, the people who are, aren’t as smart as Trump. ;)

    13. Bill Brandt Says:

      I cannot decide whether Trump is a master at manipulating the media (he sure was in the campaign) or with his constant slips a buffoon. I believe at least part of the reason most in the msm hate him is the realization that he used them for publicity – some estimate the value of his campaign exposure at $2 billion – a figure even Hillary couldn’t match.

      His vulgarity doesn’t bother me. What does amuse me having lived and remembered awhile is the vulgarity of other Presidents – LBJ for one, even Bill Clinton (it depends on what the definition of “is” is) that didn’t get them nearly as lathered.

    14. Mr Black Says:

      Jonathan, why should we admit them? We don’t need them and they have no particular right to come to America. If you think skin color and ethnic background have nothing to do with culture then you’re either being dishonest or you live in an all white neighbourhood. Care to take a walk into any of the ethnic ghettos established in various American cities? Even “integrated” foreigners maintain significant cultural differences that are at odds with American values. All the benefits are hypothetical while all the costs are real.

    15. CapitalistRoader Says:

      I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years.
      President Lyndon Johnson, 1964

    16. Mike K Says:

      A skills based immigration law is pretty much what we had until 1965 when Ted Kennedy, aided by Lyndon Johnson changed it to what we have now.

      Johnson famously said after the 1964 Civil Rights bill was signed, “We’ll have those ni** ers voting Democrat for 50 years.”

      The immigration bill was similar in intent.

      The DACA thing is pretty well exolained by VD Hanson in this LA Times piece.

      Now Democrats are demanding the preservation and institutionalization of the DACA program. One day soon, they will likely demand its expansion. They do not control either house of Congress or the presidency. They do not enjoy a majority of state legislatures and governorships. To get their way, they are counting on either favorable public opinion or threats to shut down the government.

      Democrats are so focused on the 800,000 Dreamers — less than 10% of the undocumented population — because they’re politically photogenic and for now seen as the easiest group to exempt from efforts to control illegal immigration. In blanket fashion, the media consistently report that they are model youth, fulfilling their proverbial “dreams” of finishing college and achieving upward mobility.

      I think the term attributed to Trump is not what he said but he did say “shithouse.” That seems to be the correction.

      Of course, he was correct and everyone knows it.

      The question is whether the Democrats, as John Lewis has said,
      are willing to shut down the government to keep illegal aliens in the country.

      I don’t think that will work well. Trump will not fence off national monuments, like Obama did, and the public might just be willing to punish the Democrats in November.

      Another interesting indicator is how Red State Democrats have now flipped to cater to donors and not voters.

      Normally, the lawmakers who represent states that voted for the other party’s presidential nominee, are the most bipartisan — even if it’s just to listen. Early on Sen. Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, along with Donnelly and McCaskill, all hopped on a plane with Trump. But now that they’re in the heat of fundraising, they do not want any part of it.

      They have made the bet to pick their donors in California and New York over their voters back home.

      They could be trying hard to find places to work productively with the president, yet the closer the elections get, they get further from the White House.

      This is the Achilles heel of Democrats. Their donors are even more radical than they are,

    17. Jezzy Says:

      If the United States Marines have turned up in your country post WW2, your country might just be a s***hole.
      If your country is dependant on foreign aid, humanitarian aid, and UN contributions for more then 3(and I’m being generous) years….your country might just be a s***hole.
      If your governing body, policies and actions resembles something out of Game of Thrones…your country might just be a s**thole.
      If PMCs are paid to act like your private army….your country might just be a s***hole.
      If your country has a good climate, good soil, natural resources, and potential to be sustainably profitable….but you have to hire outside contract workers, because your native population has the IQ of a turnip…your country might just be a s**thole.
      I know this because I’m a Marine who has been to and invaded enough s**holes to know.

    18. Brian Says:

      “Another interesting indicator is how Red State Democrats have now flipped to cater to donors and not voters.”
      Ditto for Red State Republicans, of course.

      It’s a fascinating situation we’re in, where there is no immigration plan that could get a majority of public support AND a majority of the Congress.

      If the GOP were unified with Trump on immigration, they’d win this easily. Of course, if the GOP held Trump-ish positions on immigration, Trump would never have been elected president. Ironic, huh?

      I’m still mystified why they aren’t using the Dem’s immigration positions to split black voters from them, since their Amnesty for All, Enforcement for None position is not at all popular. It’s basically just the position of rich white liberals who are insulated from any consequences and can feel that they are super duper nice.

    19. Brian Says:

      “I think the term attributed to Trump is not what he said but he did say “shithouse.” That seems to be the correction.”

      Based on what? Still, absolutely no one has vouched for any of this. It seems to be Dick Durbin off the record, vs. several GOP senators on the record. The MSM today has standards equal to (or worse than) the National Enquirer when it comes to attribution, which is why they are treated as such by the majority of the population.

    20. CapitalistRoader Says:

      NYT: Canadians fed up with immigrants from shithole countries.

    21. Mike K Says:

      “Still, absolutely no one has vouched for any of this.”

      Not vouching but some evidence for it.

      White House official told me tonight there is debate internally on whether Trump said “shithole” or “shithouse.” Perdue and Cotton seem to have heard latter, this person said, and are using to deny.

      Rich Lowry said it.

      “He used a different — my understanding from the meeting, he used a different, but very closely related vulgarity. He said ‘s-house,’ and not ‘s-hole.’ That’s not going to make a difference to anyone. But the general remarks — yes — I’d like to have a transcript, because everyone is putting so much weight on this to see exactly what was said in what ways, but the general tenor of the discussion has been reported accurately,” Lowry told ABC’s This Week with George Stephanopoulos on Sunday.

      The important part is that DACA is dead.

    22. PenGun Says:

      “Canadians fed up with immigrants from shithole countries.”

      Especially the one directly to our south. We are getting rather a lot of you lately.

    23. Brian Says:

      “Not vouching but some evidence for it.”
      Right, no one is willing to go on record that he said it. Several are on record that he didn’t. They can probably do so safely and accurately because the claimed quote is wrong. Because Dick Durbin is a coward, and the MSM are jackals and vipers willing to be conduits for cowards to make their political attacks, same way they allow trash like Adam Schiff to do so when it comes to national security issues, and have similarly allowed trash like Pat Leahy, et al, to do so for decades.

    24. Mike K Says:

      “We are getting rather a lot of you lately.”

      You are welcome to the illegals and crazy lefties streaming up north. If there is anything I could do to help, just let me know.

      I especially like the ISIS recruiters you are getting.

    25. Brian Says:

      As always, our local canadian commie doesn’t know what he’s talking about:
      “Remember when your anti-Trump friends vowed to pack their bags and flee to Canada after the 2016 US presidential election?
      Well, surprise! (or maybe not): Despite the heavily touted rhetoric, available data shows few Americans actually followed through on that threat. Or at least, they haven’t yet.
      According to statistics from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, the number of people from the US applying for permanent residency between January and March rose 3.6% from 2016 to 2017.
      That doesn’t exactly constitute a mass exodus, especially when looking at the raw numbers: 1,882 Americans have applied for permanent residency in Canada in 2017, just 66 more applications from the same time period in 2016.”

    26. PenGun Says:

      “You are welcome to the illegals and crazy lefties streaming up north. If there is anything I could do to help, just let me know.”

      Well thank you. I’m not sure how you could do more, but we can take your refugees and make gold from them. They were not having fun in the snow trying to leave your ‘special’ country. As well they finally get to see a non shithole country. They do seem to be pleased. I met an American immigrating from Baltimore. He had horror stories to tell and was so happy to be accepted. Nice fellow really.

    27. Brian Says:

      “it’s not unusual for Americans to threaten to move to Canada when an election or a political decision doesn’t go their way. The day after George W. Bush won reelection the CBC reported that the number of hits from Americans visiting the Canadian government’s immigration website increased six-fold; “Threatening to Move to Canada” is number 75 on the list of Stuff White People Like. But the BuzzFeed post got Brow Beat thinking, do Canadians ever threaten to move to America?

      Not really. They just move here.

      According to a report by Statistics Canada about 167,300 Canadian residents moved to the U.S. between 2001 and 2006*. That’s about 33,000 per year. By comparison about 9,000 Americans move to Canada each year, and the U.S. has nine times as many people.”

    28. Gringo Says:

      I met an American immigrating from Baltimore. He had horror stories to tell and was so happy to be accepted. Nice fellow really.

      Democrat stronghold for decades. Nancy Pelosi’s father and brother were mayors of Baltimore. In the last 70 years, Baltimore mayors have been Democrats in all but 4 years. No wonder there are some horror stories. Here is a recent horror story about Democrat governance in Baltimore: Baltimore Mayor Gave Permission to Riot.

      Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake stood before the news cameras over the weekend and really did say, “We also gave those who wish to destroy space to do that as well.”

      A hometown peer bought a house in Baltimore, and ended up selling it for half what he paid for it.

    29. Grurray Says:

      “If you think skin color and ethnic background have nothing to do with culture then you’re either being dishonest or you live in an all white neighbourhood”

      Go look up Amy Chua’s book Triple Package. She presents a lot of data to show ethnic groups that succeed have certain characteristics independent of race or color. She includes the Nigerian Igbo and Cubans as two of those groups, along with Jews and Chinese. Among other things, the successful groups all share a superiority complex from their high social status in their former country combined with an inferiority complex from the trauma of the disruption of their previous status. Another trait is impulse control from strong religious or cultural customs. She doesn’t specifically mention it, but well developed creation and exodus myths also seem to play a part.

    30. CapitalistRoader Says:

      Sorry, Penny: Three times as many Canadians move to the US every year than Americans move to Canada. Which begs the question: Why are so many people fleeing the Great White North? Could it be that your PM is dragging your country down the European path to shitholedom?

    31. PenGun Says:

      “Why are so many people fleeing the Great White North?”

      That would be those that are natural Americans anyway. Your culture flows freely over our border and some think living in a shithole is worth it if you can make more money. You are welcome to them, they should make fine Americans. ;)

    32. Joe Wooten Says:

      I know this because I’m a Marine who has been to and invaded enough s**holes to know

      I have two Marine sons (infantry) who have been to a lot of those nations. Phillipines, Yemen, Somalia, Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Kenya, and Cuba (Gitmo). The one word both had for these countries was shithole nation.

    33. Jonathan Says:

      If you think skin color and ethnic background have nothing to do with culture then you’re either being dishonest or you live in an all white neighbourhood.

      Grurray responded to this comment well. There are obvious and persistent differences in achievement levels between different immigrant groups who are racially similar to each other but culturally distinct. These differences persist for generations after the groups migrate to the USA (and to other countries, eg., the Chinese, Indians and Lebanese/Palestinians in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, respectively). These points are true for white as well as non-white immigrants. I haven’t read the Chua book but Thomas Sowell makes similar points in numerous books and essays.

      The American way of immigrant assimilation succeeded when we expected immigrants to learn English and US history and to follow our rules. The better immigrants still do these things because they understand that they are prerequisites for upward mobility in our society. I don’t see why we shouldn’t have more immigrants like these. The problem is that the Democrats want to import more poor, uneducated Latin Americans and Middle Easterners who will vote for Democrats, and the Republican establishment wants to import more cheap labor for its big-business donors. It appears that a plurality of US voters want to stop this corruption of our immigration system and that Trump is their instrument. Like the Brexit movement in the UK, he is a crude and imperfect instrument, and like Brexit he is the only effective instrument available since the elites either won’t take a position or are on the other side.

    34. Subotai Bahadur Says:

      In passing, before I retired I considered retiring to Canada. Specifically either the Vancouver City area, or on Vancouver Island. After all, Chinese have done well in BC. Then I found out that a) the place is infested with people like Pengun, b) I got more details about the Canadian medical system, or actually care-denial system, c) the odds of getting part-time work were small because of both restrictions on foreign nationals, which I understand, and because hiring is largely driven by politically correct quotas. I shifted my search to the north coast of the Olympic Peninsula in Washington, but since then Washington state has functionally seceded from the Union. So I stayed in Colorado.

      Just noting that a significant percentage of Americans involved with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada are not political or lifestyle refugees, but just the normal curiosity about expatriate retirement.

    35. Bill Brandt Says:

      You guys: Tucker Carlson made an excellent point about all of these Professors and industry people in Google and amazon who think those who believe we should restrict the immigration to people who can actually help the country.

      To, say, Jeff Bezos of Amazon or a Harvard professor’ ‘How many low skilled Haitians who speak no English have YOU hired/admitted to your company/institution?

      He made the point that these “elites” who send their children to Harvard/Stanford have some of the most restrictive admittance in the country – and that gives the schools the stellar reputation. What would happen if, say, Harvard admitted anyone who wanted to go there?

      Answer: the elites wouldn’t send their children there.

      So why is it OK for a school or company but not for the country?

    36. Anonymous Says:

      I’ve noted some recent articles recommending repeal of the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965. This is good.

      Here’s one article:

      Here’s another article, from the Canada Free Press of all places:

    37. Mr Black Says:

      Jonathan, I’m not seeing an answer to my question. That an immigrant might benefit and assimilate means nothing to AMERICAN interests. And in exchange America suffers cultural and racial dilution, which if it continues as it is, will mean America doesn’t exist anymore in the next century. Immigrants are not going to lay down their lives in the millions to protect “old white men” principles and values. We can see from how they behave in their own countries, they will support and vote for movements that favour them over other interest groups. It would be nice if we still lived in a world where immigration preference when to skilled, educated people of European ancestry. America did very well under that system. However as that is not the world we live in now, allowing the current system to continue essentially unchanged is going to be nation ruining. I’d rather have no one allowed in, than what we are getting at present.

    38. Jonathan Says:

      I addressed your question but you don’t like the answer. I see no problem with “racial dilution”. Perhaps you can explain, without begging questions about racial causation, what the harm is. And it seems to me that the results of our recent multi-cultural immigration-policy experiments compare unfavorably with those of our past when we insisted that immigrants learn English and assimilate. IOW immigration per se is not the problem.

    39. Mr Black Says:

      You haven’t answered, you’ve danced around the question with a lot of substance-free happy talk and hypothetical outcomes. How does it benefit AMERICA? In no discernible way that you can articulate, apparently.

    40. Mike K Says:

      Jonathan, since I see more immigrants than most, maybe I can contribute.

      I was involved on a small group teaching program at USC medical school for 15 years.

      USC is a private university and not a state supported school. Quite a few medical students are international or immigrant students.

      USC now has a majority non-white medical student body. Of the black students I had, most were not American born. Several were African and the rest West Indian.

      A contrast with Britain is that the NHS is importing large numbers of foreign TRAINED doctors. What I saw were immigrant and second and third generation immigrant students training HERE.

      One of my brightest (and prettiest) students was of Indian ethnic origin and her parents, both physicians, had met on an Indian dating web site. She told me that her father was the only man who had submitted a color photo. She was one of my group of Engineering graduates.

      I also worked a day or two a week examining military recruits, in Los Angles until last year and now in Phoenix. Of the LA recruits, it seemed to me that about 15 to 20% were Chinese nationals who were legal residents enlisting in a program that, after a successful enlistment, grants citizenship. Most, still had parents in China.

      Unless one thinks this is some sort of program to infiltrate the enlisted ranks of the US Army, it seems to me that lots of Chinese (I saw no Japanese applicants in 5 years) and Korean young people are spending years in the US Army to become citizens.

      Given the educational level and crime statistics of these groups, they seem to be ideal immigrants.

      I also see some African kids applying to the military and they also seem to be outstanding examples of good immigrants,

    41. Jonathan Says:

      It benefits America to have more people who are enterprising and who admire this country and adopt its values.

    42. Brian Says:

      “A contrast with Britain is that the NHS is importing large numbers of foreign TRAINED doctors.”
      Rural America is doing that as well.

    43. Grurray Says:

      Speaking of shitholes, I just saw this video of hundreds of people living tents in Orange County

      Mike K, you moved just in time, I see.

    44. Mike K Says:

      “Mike K, you moved just in time, I see.”

      Yes, we go back to see family and reflect on how good our timing was.

    45. CapitalistRoader Says:

      That would be those that are natural Americans anyway. Your culture flows freely over our border and some think living in a shithole is worth it if you can make more money. You are welcome to them, they should make fine Americans.

      That’s exactly who we want, Pen, the people who want to make money. You can keep the layabouts.

      Give me your motivated, your entrepreneurs,
      Your learned achievers yearning to breathe free,
      The best and brightest culled at your border control points.
      Send these, the hard workers to me,
      I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

    46. Ginny Says:

      I’ve generally had a positive attitude toward immigration: the rapid immigration of the 1880-1920 period filled up and defined the character of the geographical and cultural world of my youth (small towns dominated by one ethnic group from that period were our opponents in 8-man football and gave an interesting & respected diversity to our world; the old movies and 1950’s variety shows emphasized both the positive message of assimilation and the idea of the melting pot). Well, I don’t think those were illusions, but proof of Bennett’s theory: you can have open borders if you have assimilation and don’t have a tribal culture in which those interesting distinctions in the fifties become identifying in the 70’s. The identification then, of course, was with the nation and its ideals. Of course, that earlier generation of immigrants could not count on any financial help or safety net from the government. Wealth can become a problem – but then socialism, like that in NY and CA, is taking care of that problem for those states.

      The drama hypocritical Durbin evokes in place of any actual defense of his proposed bill gives the game away: we realize that (as usual) we are dealing with a totally non serious person. And one whose ambitions are either unacknowledged or unconscious but sure as hell don’t have to do with making this a productive, self-reliant culture. It isn’t just that these people don’t seem to have a trouble with M13 immigration – nor Islamic terrorists. They really don’t believe in self-reliance. (For all of Emerson’s naval-gazing, the culture he espoused was self-reliant; he preaches against charity. Perhaps that isn’t his most attractive argument, but that emphasis was bedrock then. Of course, those New Englanders also tended to be against immigration and the Irish especially.)

      And listening to those preaching for immigration has made me realize how little they understand American history and what has been useful and what hasn’t been. It has also made me question their sincerity, their honesty, and their willingness to look at truths. Answering any questions by implying all the “dreamers” are soldiers and teachers is becoming preposterous. Waving away the dangers of criminal gangs and Islamic terrorists is also irritating. You don’t have to be paranoid or racist to believe those are not productive additions (nor does it seem to take their first responsibility – protection of the public – seriously). Indeed, most of these arguments demonstrate an antipathy to assimilation and hedge the moment self-reliance might be considered.

    47. Anonymous Says:

      I believe Sowell’s point is that if the sub-culture one grows up in favors disfunctional group and individual behaviors and attitudes and is subsidized by the larger society with entitlements, you can get a ****hole permanent underclass who can and will be politically exploited as an oppressed group.

      In many of the underdeveloped countries (I know of no important exceptions), the Western system of rule of law based on natural liberty/rights and respect for each individual does not exist. A select minority of the population have the ownership of the power and property and use corruption and government power to exclude the remaining population from access. If you live or come from one of those places, you will bring those norms with you. You will be highly likely, especially as one with limited language skills and little exposure to western norms, to come here with expectations that you can access the material and societal bounty with little effort or primarily with your native skills. Figuring out access to the underground economy and entitlements doesn’t take much time or effort. Apparently the Chinese and some other groups of orientals have preserved a cultural norm of ambition, family accountability and industry despite living in socialist/communist/****hole countries.

      The stark contrast between North and South Korea and Nationalist China and Communist China stand as evidence that ethnic difference has little explanatory power in determining material or political suitability of groups for westernization.

      All this to say that immigration must be carefully done based on individual suitability characteristics and in controlled numbers to allow generational assimilation. The magnets and support systems that we have created that delay, reverse or are negative incentives for adopting and acting in concurrence with western values are the source reason we have corrupted the immigration system and enslaved certain ethnic populations in our own cities or other enclaves.

      The progressives believe these foreign or domestic ethic populations are largely incapable of functioning with independence and generous liberty. They are the racists who seek to rule them in an act of pity and self-aggrandizement. What virtue to make such a sacrifice. The tools who believe this self-proclaimed virtue as motivation and are ignorant of the impossibility of such a system being sustainable without coercion, never mind ineffective, are the useful idiots that empower the societal elite to accumulate control.

      I have no reason to adopt their disproven belief that ability to function with liberty and self-responsibility is ethnically determined in large. I reject their belief that universal values and learned attitudes and behaviors that lead to human progress and opportunity have little to do with disparities in these values and expectations and associated results we see both externally and internally.


    48. Ginny Says:

      I realized I’d left out the third of Bennett’s points – democracy – which is the given that multiculturalism and open borders can’t reinforce and build a democracy. And Death6’s point reinforces that thoughtfully. For instance, the forties army demonstrated we were one – it wasn’t just the movies but the experiences of that generation we heard about growing up. If democracy is a strong and unifying concept then the melting pot produces a healthy blend, but if unassimilable parts are thrown in – well, I guess my metaphor breaks down but so does the country.

      Like Death6, I believe the genetic argument doesn’t hold water. However, it did take generations to move a broad culture and varied people to value the characteristics that make a democracy tick – just holding an election isn’t enough. One generation may be enough, but surely isn’t a steady base. The fact that some of these characteristics were already integral to such cultures as Japan’s and Germany’s is true; I suspect that the long range occupation by the American army gave a breathing time for the culture to develop that undergirds such a system.

      I do sometimes wonder if pulling out of the south in 1877 was wise. It might have meant a more stable rather than less stable move to the twentieth and even twenty-first centuries. Watching Californians, who can now lay claim to the title of poorest state, observe southern plantations led me to consider how easily we accept our concessions to comfort (believing the “wall” is unnecessary, that immigrants are necessary because they do the jobs others won’t, etc.) and how we all have trouble understanding another time and place.

      But “staying in” is colonizing – a role Americans have always rejected (it was key to our revolution – we weren’t British). And staying in requires the absolute confidence that we sometimes still see (and find irritating) in the British today. (Not that doubts about those values and reluctance to act in that role hasn’t led them to such cultures Rotherham.) Both England and the United States might be usefully uplifted by comparing British colonies in which the rule of law was established with nations conquered by other empires that didn’t make that institution central to colonization. (Again, I’m willing to be corrected -these are more impressions than claims I can fully support.)

    49. Mike K Says:

      “Both England and the United States might be usefully uplifted by comparing British colonies in which the rule of law was established with nations conquered by other empires that didn’t make that institution central to colonization.”

      I am still impressed with a book I read a few years ago about Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe knew he was not equipped to rule that country but he was driven by his radical supporters to reject all whites.

      He begged Lord Soames, the last Governor General of Rhodesia, to stay and help him rule.

      Soames, whose wife was Winston Churchill’s youngest daughter Mary, could not stay because the British had decided to leave and did not leave him the option,

      When Soames died, Mugabe even though he was barred from Britain, attended his funeral with his wife.

      Lord Soames died from pancreatitis, aged 66. His ashes were buried within the Churchill plot at St Martin’s Church, Bladon, near Woodstock, Oxfordshire.

      The Mugabes showed kindness to Lady Soames when her husband Christopher died. She did not expect them to come but the Soames’ must have meant a lot to the Mugabes. At that time Mugabe had not been banned in Britain and London was his second home and he didn’t an excuse to go London.
      Mary Soames represented Queen Elizabeth at Sally’s funeral. Mary Soames humanized Mugabe and gave us insight into the life of mysterious Mugabe. I guess it took a Churchill to divulge to us a piece of Mugabe and this relationship can best be described by the British adage

      My information from the book on Mugabe was that he was barred from visiting Britain. He attended the funeral anyway.

    50. Mr Black Says:

      Yes, it does benefit America to have more successful Americans within its borders. That is a relatively useless statement though. In order to acquire these people we are obliged to take on an awful lot of negatives though. Their national and cultural allegiance is not to America, it is to their home. No one on earth imagines that a Pakistani immigrant thinks of himself as “American”. He is a Pakistani living in America. The exceptions to this rule are exceptions, so let’s not wave them about. Only moronic westerners think that changing your paperwork changes your character. Try going to China and claiming to “be Chinese” just because you live there. They’d tell you to go fuck yourself, only not so politely. There is a reason that every city has a Little China somewhere. And a little Italy. And a little everything else. Because those people are making sure to preserve THEIR culture, not pretend to adopt that of their new postal address.

    51. Ginny Says:

      There is a difference between keeping some of your old customs, an affection for certain ethnic identifying foods and a pleasure in some ethnic music, of using an occasional word from the old country and believing the American Revolution was a great thing, that voting is a civic duty, that an objective, rule of law should be applied to all equally. One sees that identify enlarging in the future and the former sees life on the surface in this geographic place. A pride and a buyin to this tradition, a belief in America’s ideals and an affection for its history – that is assimilation. And it can happen But it doesn’t happen easily in our current culture. One of my husband’s friend, whom we’ve known for 25 years, started discussing ideas at lunch that I think were even new to him (he came to this country as a young boy); his remarkable ability with languages made not just RT accessible but Spiegel on line. The result is an identification with academic America (where he is, of course) rather than one with the core America that is more complicated but also more joyful, distinctive, rich in tradition.

    52. Mr Black Says:

      In that case Ginny, I expect that all the ethnic minorities in America will be equally well represented in the civic, community, political and legal institutions that exist to continue and support American traditions and culture. Are there a lot of Pakistani first amendment scholars out there? Sudanese members of the Lions Club? Are there many Turkish people in the volunteer search and rescue groups? Somehow, I suspect not. I suspect the people who hold America together are actual Americans while the foreigners enjoy the benefits of the system without having any real interest in doing the maintenance work. And if a politician tells them they’ll tear that system down and make sure groups x, y and z get the spoils, then that system is COMING DOWN. They don’t give a shit about America on the whole, only in the benefits that America can provide them.

    53. Brian Says:

      “The result is an identification with academic America (where he is, of course) rather than one with the core America”
      This is why I would rather we accept an immigrant from Mexico who has nothing but the desire and work ethic to open a store than one from Europe with a PhD. I don’t think “education” or “highly skilled” is a good proxy for “good American”. (Here’s where I always have to qualify that, yes, I agree that the current system is a total disaster and allowing unlimited immigration from unskilled foreigners is a really bad.)

    54. Jonathan Says:

      Have you spent much time in America, Mr Black?

    55. PenGun Says:

      “That’s exactly who we want, Pen, the people who want to make money. You can keep the layabouts.”

      Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. You are so broke, it’s hard to understand the depth of your debt. It’s estimated that the US dollar is really worth about 30% of it’s stated value. QE is very hard on currency value. Trump is happy to pile on more debt.

      This will never be paid, but you will lose the currency of record, which will finish you economically. ;)

    56. Phil Ossiferz Stone Says:

      >Have you spent much time in America, Mr Black?

      Answer his question. From personal experience.

      PS: I was not aware we were letting foreign nationals into the US military as a fast track towards citizenship. Nor am I aware of when it happened, or how. But I want it stopped. Now. It is insane.

    57. Anonymous Says:

      Assimilation is not accomplished in a generation. This is one reason to limit the numbers drastically.

      Secondly, the better baseline of essential attitudes and behaviors immigrants have when they come, the more easily they will become assimilated. This is one reason to be highly selective.

      Thirdly, we have created a welfare entitlement system offering acceptable living standards comparing well above what many immigrants could ever have achieved in their homelands and a post modern and highly anti western values educational system. These social/political constructs are counter productive to assimilation and upward mobility of both externally and internally sourced self-identified groups who choose not to even want to assimilate. Adding more immigrants in categories highly likely to join this permanent dependent underclass is adding to what we are creating internally by instilling statist and group entitlement values while subsidizing them economically and behaviorally. This is one reason to be highly effective in being exclusionary about illegal or unregulated immigration.

      Britain is a great example of how a “value-free” educational system and generous and permanent welfare entitlements will create a violent, intransigent underclass that will grow faster than ultimately can be supported. Not to mention the corrosive effect on the values at large that creates the surplus to hold the society together. Britain shows there is no need for ethic/racial difference to create this subculture.

      Once it really becomes about getting each other’s piece of the pie, civil breakdown soon follows. Venezuela, Detroit.


    58. Mr Black Says:

      I’ll say I’ve spent very little time in America or a great deal, whichever he prefers in order to make his point. But it doesn’t change the fact that immigration is in the immigrants interests and not in the host nations.

    59. Jonathan Says:

      But it doesn’t change the fact that immigration is in the immigrants interests and not in the host nations.

      That is your opinion. My argument is that immigration benefits the USA as long as we are reasonably selective and encourage assimilation.

    60. CapitalistRoader Says:

      Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. You are so broke, it’s hard to understand the depth of your debt.

      Actually, it’s pretty easy to understand:

      <a href=";Gross Government Debt as a % of GDP
      Japan: 238%
      USA: 107%
      France: 90%
      Canada: 87%
      UK: 85%
      Germany: 82%
      PRC: 41%
      Australia: 34%

      It’s estimated that the US dollar is really worth about 30% of it’s stated value.

      Who’s It’s?

    61. Mike K Says:

      This is why I would rather we accept an immigrant from Mexico who has nothing but the desire and work ethic to open a store than one from Europe with a PhD.

      I’d say that was probably the case 30 years ago. My closets friend in medical school was one of ten children in east LA whose father ran a wrought iron shop and his mother never learned English. She made her own tortillas.

      My first wife taught children in East LA when I was a medical student. She learned early to never criticism a child to the parents ate “back to school night.” Her Hispanic kids would come to school the next day with bruises. I saw lots of Spanish speaking adults in the medical clinics whose kids came with them to translate.

      That was the 1960s.

      Since then we have seen a concerted effort to resist assimilation and maintain a Mexican subculture called “Aztlan” in which the Mexicans refused to adopt American culture and began to adopt the “acting white” pathology that has appeared in blacks.

      This is mostly driven by politicians who have adopted the “identity” version of politics. Jordan Peterson has described this as similar to Chairman Mao’s politics, which causes rage and frustration on the left.

      This great Peterson interview gives an example of the frustrated rage by the “feminist” interviewer.

      My classmate’s siblings, nine of them, with the exception of the oldest who had died in an industrial accident, all had graduate degrees.

      The immigrants from Mexico we see now are from more primitive Indian villages and many do not even speak Spanish, let alone read it.

    62. Mike K Says:

      Capitalist roader, the value of the dollar can be seen in the price of gold but that is also true of Canada, which when I was a child, had a currency worth about 20% more than US currency.

      I have a gold quarter eagle on my money clip that was worth $2.50 in 1906. It is worth now about $350.

      All is the result of inflation. The same all over the world, including Canada.

    63. Grurray Says:

      “It’s estimated that the US dollar is really worth about 30%”

      QE is over. The Fed is now tightening and sucking up dollars.

      In addition, last year we saw foreign companies commit to invest billions of dollars in America. Since the tax cuts passed, American companies have pledged to repatriate hundreds of billions of dollars more that have been sheltered overseas. This will result in a massive reversal in capital flows that had previously been keeping the dollar low. There will now be a relative shortage of dollars in the rest of the world causing the dollar to rise in value. The target is above the high in 1985 just before the G-5 nations colluded to devalue the dollar and set in motion a chain of events that saw manufacturers flee America, wages stagnate or drop, and the middle class hollowed out. A historic mistake that we are finally going to remedy.

      There’s a sea change occurring in America right now, and it’s going to be felt all around the world.

    64. Mike K Says:

      “There’s a sea change occurring in America right now, and it’s going to be felt all around the world.”

      I hope so. If the Democrats get enough LIVs to vote for them they could throw enough sand in the gears to stop the progress.

      George Mitchell did this in 1992 enough to stop the recovery from the 1991 recession (caused by Bush’s tax increase) by blocking the capital gains tax cut.

      I still believe that Bush raised taxes in 1991 to get Democrats to vote for the Gulf War. I think it was a deal with Rostenkowski even though Bush later denied it.

      Gore later admitted his vote was for sale in that event.

    65. Brian Says:

      “I hope so. If the Democrats get enough LIVs to vote for them they could throw enough sand in the gears to stop the progress.”
      If the economy is booming the GOP will do fine, even with its massive internal fractures.

      And if the news actually comes out about what the Obama administration did regarding surveillance of their domestic political opponents, the Dems are cooked.

    66. Grurray Says:

      I don’t doubt it. There were funny things going on between Bush I and the Democrats in congress.

      Another contributor to the recession was the savings & loan crisis. A bailout bill was passed early into Bush’s presidency, but a key provision proposed by Henry Hyde were left out

      The vote came on an amendment by Representative Henry J. Hyde, Republican of Illinois. He and other supporters of weaker standards argued that the Administration was reneging on an agreement that enabled buyers of ailing institutions to complete the deals without putting up much money.

      Typical NYT propaganda there. Hyde proposed the amendment to stop the elimination of what they referred to as supervisory goodwill. Goodwill allowed the S&Ls to spread out repayment of losses over years or even decades. Remember the run on the bank in It’s A Wonderful Life:

      “You’re thinking of this place all wrong. As if I had the money back in a safe. The money’s not here. Your money’s in Joe’s house…right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Macklin’s house, and a hundred others. Why, you’re lending them the money to build, and then, they’re going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now what are you going to do? Foreclose on them?”

      Well, Hyde’s amendment was rejected, and Congress instead decided to take Mr. Potter’s offer. The result was a cascade of failure for savings and loans, the government eventually went on the hook for all the losses, creating a permanent “too big to fail” backspot, turning America into Pottersville, and accelerating the government takeover of the financial industry that liberal leftist have dreamed of for years.

    67. CapitalistRoader Says:

      Mike K., yes, I own Sprott Physical Gold Trust (formerly Central Fund of Canada). Back in ’78 I bought Krugerrands for, as I recall, $200 each. I still have a couple of them along with US silver coins.

      20% in precious metals is my current allocation.

    68. Mike K Says:

      “Back in ’78 I bought Krugerrands for, as I recall, $200 each.”

      I bought 35 of them that year, I was getting divorced from my first wife and, at the last minute, she rejected the settlement. I had about $25,000 in cash to give her so, when she changed her mind, I bought Krugerrands with the money. I paid, as I recall, $404 each. A year later, she finally agreed to the settlement and I sold the Krugerrrands for $806.

      I pad the same amount just from the profit on the Krugerrrands.

      I wish I had bought gold in 1999 when it was $200.

    69. Jonathan Says:

      A friend emails:

      Shithole is in fact the right word for many places from which we should NOT want future immigrants to the USA.

      Three weeks after college, I flew to Senegal, West Africa, to run a community center in a rural town. Life was placid, with no danger, except to your health. That danger was considerable, because it was, in the words of the Peace Corps doctor, “a fecalized environment.”
      In plain English: s— is everywhere.

      Aside from the literal feces, the culture is pretty darn shitty as well. RTWT.

      The linked American Thinker post is excellent.

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