ISIS has released a ‘kill list’ of Minnesota law enforcement. Before the first law enforcement victim gets attacked off that list, there are already injuries, the reputation and community standing of loyal, reasonable, peaceful Muslims who have to get checked off as not a risk of attempting to act on the list. These Muslim american citizens, permanent residents, and visitors have their quality of life degraded every time ISIS or any other extremist organization tries to associate these Muslims with extremist violence. And unlike the law enforcement officers who are on such a list and are statistically unlikely to actually be targeted, the damage to these Muslims is certain and is already happening.
Clearly the bulk of the US response to such a list should be to protect those targeted for death and to try and find the list creators to stop them. But minor injuries are still injuries and are at least a tort. Why not run with it and create a class action lawsuit to recompense the non-radicals for the damage done to their reputation? At the very least it might give some pause to the moneybags of the Muslim world who are currently supporting the violent radicals.
First, we should stop the Saudis’ radicalization of American mosques.
Mike K – This situation is not a matter of serial processing but parallel. Work on one problem can proceed independent of the other so they should proceed independently.
“Work on one problem can proceed independent of the other so they should proceed independently.”
But the Saudis have been unopposed for a decade as they radicalized mosques. The rest is secondary if mosques keep turning out Minnesota Men. </a.
Mosque-busting is an admirable endeavor, but after years of watching and reading and learning a bit, I’m more convinced than ever that it’s two-pronged task. Those who would invite and and tolerate the colonization are equally culpable. Fifteen years after 9/11 we should not be jumping around in our bare feet at airline terminals, instead being rest assured that “Charlie don’t fly”
http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/02/23/mosquebusters/
Mike K – You’re not in charge. Nobody is in charge, except of ourselves and our own resources. You can ask for my participation and aid on a project you prefer. I’m doing that very thing in this article in the other direction so I have no problem with it being directed towards me. But don’t tell me I should put down my own ideas because they are secondary. That sort of thing implies a hierarchy of power and authority that does not exist.
I’m laying out an approach, one that is open to adoption by any muslim who dislikes being roped into the Islamist cause due to how these fatwas are written. If we are to wedge the muslims and separate out the violent threats from the guys who are compatible with our society you have to give reasonable muslims a pathway to acting against their violence prone co-religionists that is practical, can be widely applied, and then you observe as revealed preferences help sort the goats from the sheep.
We have the gun nuts out west, Bundy et al, posting officers particulars online, to, I suppose, get someone to do something to them.
We have the US targeting and assassinating people all over the world, with drones mostly. A great deal of the hate America faces is generated by this.
The ISIS list is just more of the same and there will always be law enforcement, or indeed any opposition to them, outed whenever possible.
You would do the same thing, and be pleased with yourself, if it suited your purpose, but you want to sue Muslims who might be in the area if anything, that has absolutely nothing to do with them, happens to these people on that list.
Well thought out … not.
A) loyal,
B) reasonable,
C) peaceful
D) Muslims
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn’t belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
PenGun,
We have the gun nuts out west, Bundy et al, posting officers particulars online, to, I suppose, get someone to do something to them.
We have the US targeting and assassinating people all over the world, with drones mostly. A great deal of the hate America faces is generated by this.
Your analysis above requires us to accept the premise that you have an understanding of the world as it is and that your conclusions are sound.
In a previous thread you probably forgot to answer the question I asked you, so would you please grace us with your explanation so that we can determine for ourselves whether you do have an understanding of how the world works and whether we can accept your conclusions on various topics as being soundly grounded in reality.
PenGun – I think you really don’t know how the legal system works. You have a John Doe defendant named as the author of the ISIS kill list and then, when found, the court can be petitioned to substitute the name of the guy after he’s been convicted. The thing hasn’t even been launched and you’re already wailing at the miscarriage of justice.
The point of the exercise is to give peaceful muslims the ability to lawfully highlight that they do not appreciate extremists trying to rope them into their violent schemes. That you would deny these people their legitimate day in court is kind of sad. Or do you think that moderate muslims do not suffer an injury to their reputation when extremists do these things?
Mrs. Davis – It is an experiment, an inexpensive opportunity for muslims to reveal their preferences. Why are you opposed to letting people show their true colors? It will neither break your leg nor pick your pocket to cheer from the sideline that a private suit go forward. It would only fail to go forward if you are right.
Either way we get a teachable moment.
“But don’t tell me I should put down my own ideas because they are secondary. That sort of thing implies a hierarchy of power and authority that does not exist.”
I did not. Here, I thought this was a discussion and now I am told I am telling you how to think. Micro aggression ?
See you on some other topic.
I think the reason we are losing is that we have people suggesting that a lawsuit is the appropriate response to a kill list. What there be any other way that could possibly signal how weak we are? What we SHOULD do is level a city with B-52’s. Have them fly in low and noisy, let those animals KNOW this is the last thing they ever see. We’ll see who runs out of people first, them or us.
The moderate Muslims have had ample opportunity to demonstrate their opposition to the jihadists, but have shown little inclination to do so. Most of their more public efforts seem to be in furthering their government imposed protected group status under the umbrella of political correctness and multiculturalism. Their toleration of the jihadists among them and us seems to be the norm. It is true that some have joined the fight by signing up for the military and we have some informing on the jihadists, but that seems to be minimal. The toleration of the radicalization of the mosques is another area where the moderates are quite tolerant of the jihadists.
Their general pattern of behavior is I believe rightly seen as a potential threat by our non-Muslim population. Hard to quantify the size of it, but the potential is great based on surveys that show a large plurality supporting suicide bombing and other forms of terrorism. Not a huge step from intellectual consent to action. That step being largely gradual and individual, it becomes very problematic to intervene before action is initiated.
I’m not hostile concerning them suing for relief from their situation caused by the jihadists. I just don’t believe it will discourage jihadists appreciably and I doubt it will separate the sheep from those future goats among them. Additionally, those pushing the suits would get to be on their own jihadi kill list. The more effective the suits, the higher they go on the list. I think it unlikely they will take this suggestion or follow through if they go through the motions. Let’s see. As Danny said, “Show me da money.”
Death6
I think the reason we are losing…
We are not losing. ISIS and their ilk can do us occasional damage, but they are not an existential threat. I have more likelihood of being hit by lightning than dying by ISIS. The places they are active are the chaotic and failed states of the Middle East: Libya, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. We have very little ability to influence those places short of killing everyone or inserting a massive occupation force, neither of which is going to happen.
Things we can do that would help:
1. Work with interested parties in the region to arm them and provide them with intel.
2. Work to understand and interrupt their ability to fund themselves or be funded.
3. Run special operations to disrupt their organization and logistics, kill their leadership and kill their soldiers whenever the opportunity presents itself.
We should do all of the above in a consistent, systematic way. Plan for this to take many years and hammer away. Despite their rhetoric, we have far greater ability to work against them indefinitely than they have ability to sustain that.
TM Lutus:
I agree that lawfare is another tool in the toolbox, and we should use it. And to the degree we can hurt the sponsors of terrorism and radical islam in the Middle East through financial means, yes, we should. And make it hurt too. But the muslim integration problem is just one manifestation of the killing of the Melting Pot idea and it’s replacement with the socially destructive Multicultural idea. That idea needs to be abandoned and destroyed.
I suggest you people do two things: Google the Pew and Gallup polls of the Islamic diaspora and look at their attitudes on, say, the primacy of shariah law, the death penalty for apostasy, etc. Then read the Quran from beginning to finish. Pay close attention to the second half, which pretty well negates all the happy shiny stuff in the first half. Which illustrates the difference between a powerless Muslim in exile and one with a small army of angry horny landless young Arabs at his back.
Those ‘moderate’ Muslims are largely Good Germans. As in 70%-80% of them, from Egypt to Jordan to Pakistan. They *approve* of what their religious fascist brethren are doing, and the ones that aren’t are too scared to say anything. That’s a hard pill to swallow. It took me more than a decade of research and conversation and deep thought for this ex-Al Gore Democrat to get it all the way down. But there it is. We need to perform civilizational triage. We need Cold War style containment. Weeping and screeching about freedom of religion is besides the point. Block all immigration from majority Muslim countries and refuse to renew the visas for non-citizens from those nations. As for the communities with critical masses of now-enfranchised Muslims, complete with mosques and no-go areas and brain-lesion level calls to prayer at 6:00AM to drive the infidels out, from Hamtramck to Boise to New York to Berdoo, they have embraced a serpent and will suffer the results. The rest of our country is still salvageable, sort of.
PS: I do hope PenGun gets culturally enriched by the ‘refugees’ his PC-besotted country is taking on board. He deserves it. Not another office building full of my own countrymen.
The new other. Any Muslim. You deserve the chaos that is enveloping your country. You have earned it, and it’s yours.
TM your continuing gotcha weapon is weak. It’s only good for trying to get a simple response to your attack. Rather like the fox weasel who used to ambush people.
Your gun culture is huge. You really do see yourself as some kind of heroic people armed with cool weapons. You love your guns more than almost anything else you have. That’s the thing I find stupid and it’s really just America that thinks this way.
Michael Hiteshaw – Killing the melting pot is a manifestation of the robbing of the present generation of its heritage so, yeah. We’re generally pulling in the same direction with different emphases. Vive la diference and all that. B-)
I think you’re being a bit too optimistic on ISIS. The existential threat is the march of time and technological progress. The really dangerous WMD all have a flat to slightly dropping difficulty to create while tech progress is empowering everyone. Eventually the lines will cross and even the dangerously disconnected who are happy to see the world burn down will have the technical capability to make that dream happen. That’s an existential threat decades away but it will also take decades to connect those people into the global system so that they are, by and large, invested in and protective of that system. ISIS slows down that integration process.
Phil Ossiferz Stone – Those ‘Good Germans’ as you put it, need to be wedged. They should have frequent chances to make choices either for or against the radicals. We end up with more enemies that way but also more friends. The friends survive, the enemies don’t, or they convert over to friends. Unfortunately, the Democratic party can no longer be relied on to pursue a bipartisan foreign policy of opposition to this country’s enemies.
PenGun – Your concern trolling is noted. Thank you for sharing.
The moderate Muslims have had ample opportunity to demonstrate their opposition to the jihadists, but have shown little inclination to do so. Most of their more public efforts seem to be in furthering their government imposed protected group status under the umbrella of political correctness and multiculturalism.
After 9/11 I was waiting to see if there would be a massive Muslim-American demonstration of patriotism and a surge in military enlistment. If Muslims replicated the Japanese-American 442nd Regiment of WWII fame, that could have flipped the script on American perceptions. Instead we got Muslims in uniform fragging their mates, Col. Hassan, and other bellyaching about Muslims in uniform finding it offensive to fight against Muslims in other nations.
Now I clearly see the hierarchy of loyalties.
PenGun,
Your gun culture is huge.
There you go again. Why don’t you answer the question I asked you? Why do some Canadian provinces have higher homicide rates than almost all of the northern US states when we have this horrid gun culture that you disdain and you have a land of tree-hugging hippies?
That Benghazi knot. I thinks once someone has the courage and will to start tugging on it, we’ll have a much better idea of what ISIS or ISIL as their cheerleaders refer to them, are. Remember, during the Baltimore riots many of the actors were photographed giving the one-finger salute. Forty-five years ago, Kerry was working on behalf of the Viet Cong, nowadays he represents Iran. Ayers, having beat the reaper and the legal system, continues to foment racial strife and discord in his sixth decade. Rats are clever and adaptable, we just need better cats.
TM,
I have no objection to lawfare being used against Isis. It’s a clever tactic in what is a long war. But it is a long war. And we delude ourselves if we think as demographics change Muslims will be loyal, reasonable and peaceful. Especially as we have turned our backs on individualism and assimilation as a goal if not a 100% successful policy. At 2-3% of the population they have to be. And many truly are. But as they get to 10% of the population they will become a more outspoken tribal minority demanding its rights, including Sharia law in their “community.” More and more coercion will be used within their “community” to force those who are truly loyal, reasonable and peaceful to, at a minimum, stifle and more frequently to change. We should not delude ourselves.
TangoMan you want to compare our very poorly populated frontier, arctic territories, to your northern states. The picture you dredged up is simplistic. I like to compare these two sets of data:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#United_States
These also have the year so you can see the comparison more clearly. Now we were talking about guns and culture but you would like to talk about homicide rates. Here ya go.
Pengun, your country comparisons by region suggest strongly that homicide rates correlate most closely with ethnicity, culture and/or race. IOW it’s not about guns or “gun culture” and your evidence undermines your own argument. If you were correct, US border states such as Washington, Montana, North Dakota and Minnesota would have significantly higher homicide rates than do the Canadian provinces they border, but this is not the case.
TangoMan you want to compare our very poorly populated frontier, arctic territories, to your northern states. The picture you dredged up is simplistic. I like to compare these two sets of data:
I wouldn’t call Alberta (8.24), Saskatchewan (2.63) and Manitoba (3.34) any more poorly populated per square miles than Wyoming (5.28) and Montana (6.5) and North Dakota (9.23). This is a red herring. Homicides usually occur where people are, so isolated shacks aren’t real hot beds for murder. Lots of empty space between population centers doesn’t have an effect on homicide rates.
I’m not letting you off the hook. I know you like to compare aggregated data because that way you lose specific information. I’m asking you a very specific question which compares Like-to-Like.
Why do your prairie provinces and your territories have HIGHER homicide rates than America’s northern tier states. This should not be possible given your previous explanation that America’s gun culture is responsible for our higher homicide rate.
To be even more on point, our northern states have American gun culture and your Canadian prairie provinces and your territories do not have that gun culture, so why do your provinces and territories suffer from a higher homicide rate than the America’s norther states?
Jonathon,
Of course you’re right but the goal here is to get PenGun to renounce his ideologically driven position and concede to the reality of the situation.
Here is homicide data from the Centers for Disease Control broken down by racial group of the victims. White homicide rate is 2.53 and that’s for the entire nation. For comparison here is homicide data from Northern Europe and it provides annual data for a few years. Denmark’s rate was lower than the American rate at 1.0 (2001) and 0.8 (2011), Estonia’s rate was higher than America’s white rate 10.1 (2001) and 5.0 (2011), Finland’s rate was in our ballpark 3.0 (2001) and 2.1 (2011).
If America’s white population was measured against European homicide rates, we’d be near the top, and with countries like Denmark we’d have a rate which was a multiple of theirs. The point is that we fit in the range and this despite American whites having a pervasive and deeply ingrained gun culture and the complicating factor of having to live in alongside other ethnic and racial groups with higher violent crime stats which influence our own behavior to some degree.
America’s high homicide rate has little to do with gun culture and almost everything to do with demographics. Check these stats for “Men between the ages of 20-29.” And just for PenGun’s pleasure, this study looked at predictors of firearm homicide, the aspect which particularly worries PenGun, and look at what they found to be the best predictor.
One more finding, just for good measure. An inverse correlation between a nation’s gun ownership rate and homicide rates.
I forgot to add Reagan’s perspective on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiGsHCpBGg4
Mrs Davis – Muslims should be treated as they behave in my book. The second amendment will keep the coercion down because the muslims being coerced will also be armed. This should prevent the malign groupthink and uniform capture of the whole community by violent factions. When sane people see their community going to hell and being captured in the USA they do one of two things. They arm up or they leave. When they leave, they tend not to be very tolerant of the spread of the guys that made them uproot once already.
This population dynamic does not happen in the UK or France or Germany. Let’s take advantage of our different security structure.
Here’s another look at it
US vs Canadian homicides
Part 1
and
Part 2
US vs Canadian assaults
Part 1
and
Part 2
When adjusted for race and method, Canadians and Americans kill at nearly the same rate. Canadians’ stats are helped by their restrictive gun laws because otherwise they commit far more assaults. The murders that do occur are more violent and grisly because relatively humane firearms aren’t readily available. Conclusion – Canadians are more violent.
Canada and the UK also have more home invasions per capita than the US while the US has more daytime break-ins per capita. A home invader has less to fear from breaking in, holding the family hostage, beating them, and robbing them while they are held hostage because there is little fear of the homeowner being armed and shooting the home invader. Besides, with the home owners being held hostage, they can be assaulted to open safes or reveal where the valuables are hidden.
Any burglar trying this strategy in the US runs a good chance of being shot dead which is why most break and enters occur during work hours when there is no one at home.
Gun culture is kind of a nice thing to have, wouldn’t you say, PenGun? I’d rather have my stuff ripped off rather than be held hostage by a home invader.
>> Conclusion – Canadians are more violent.
Of the Canuks I’ve known, they’re very much like average Americans. As are the Europeans I’ve known. The drumbeat of ‘we’re different than X’ originates with people who’re pushing an agenda.
Of the Canuks I’ve known, they’re very much like average Americans.
What you wrote is, essentially, a historical observation and both identities are slowly becoming meaningless. These days either Canadian or American could mean something like this..
Mrs. Davis Says:
March 17th, 2016 at 2:52 pm
Mrs. Davis, the 2-3% figure is pure CAIR propaganda. There are not 6 to 7 million Muslims here. The CIA World Factbook says less than 2 million.
I suspect the Muslim population may end up be see in pre-Obama and post-Obama percentages.
“I wouldn’t call Alberta (8.24), Saskatchewan (2.63) and Manitoba (3.34) any more poorly populated per square miles than Wyoming (5.28) and Montana (6.5) and North Dakota (9.23).”
Where did your 8.2 come from for Alberta? I suspect you transposed that from the Yukon.
Not my point. Guns as a fetish object, like in the USA are a problem for me particularly. I’m aggressive and sometimes get in fights, although that has not happened in a long time. In your country I would need to arm myself or back down. I’d have to get used to backing down, I have no interest in killing anyone. Here I can just take my chances and see what happens without risking my life. I don’t have to carry as no one else does. Just how I like it. We start at a young age, they send us out to do battle on the hockey rinks. We get used to hits and are happy to scrap over the silly puck. We can get in a fight, get over it and all go the bar together. I’ve done that several times. In your culture I could easily be dead already.
It’s just crazy from where I sit. Home invasion is a nutty way to describe B&E. I much prefer the burglar get away with my stuff than I kill the silly fool. Kids, males especially have a period where they rip stuff off if they are not brought up well. It lasts from about 14 to maybe 20, then they largely get over it. Shooting them will ensure they never get over it.
How does it go: “You get your gun, I’ll get mine. We can do this, just one time.”
Chicago Boyz kindly provide a list of links on the right> Among them is “Chicago Crime Stats” On that page are links for the Chicago Police Dept. scanner channels. Here at Casa Reprobato we tune into the 10th and 11th district on days when we’re housebound. The action never stops. Very instructive resource for those who’ve never had the big city immersion experience. As for the 14-20 theory it may apply in some circles, but not so much other places.
Marion is now fifty. His most recent arrest is comically referred to as a “hit and run” but the street says he stopped, backed up and ran the mf’er’s head over. He may be old skool but remains an icon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suge_Knight